Red mage, samurai, black mage, lets discuss balance.

[Galvuu]

snip

In your example, given our current data, SAM should be way higher (like 4.4k).
They have 4.6k dummy dps, and there are no-balance 4.5k dps SAMs on Susie EX.

[Elspeth]

Probably important to note at this point, I said the other casters should be buffed. I never said rdm should be top dps. I said complexity is not a means for nerfs or buffs. I personally think physic should work like vercure, and smn should do the same damage as rdm (not more because the smn would now be able to contribute healing while it's dots and pet fight

[HoLoFoNo]

In your example, given our current data, SAM should be way higher (like 4.4k).
They have 4.6k dummy dps, and there are no-balance 4.5k dps SAMs on Susie EX.

It's just an example graph, and there is no concrete way to calculate something like efficiency. That being said don't forget that no-balance only means no-balance. It doesn't mean no dragon sight, litany, battle voice, trick attack, brotherhood, embolden, devotion hell even arrows. It is clear, however, that some classes have a lot more freedom in fights as they aren't effected by mechanics as much, such examples being BRD, RDM and SAM.

[OgruMogru]

The thing is, Red mage has great mobility, support utility in raise and healing AND party utility with embolden [ the fact that embolden helps EVERYONE but other casters is an especially big grain of salt in the wound considering everyone else lost Raging Strikes and embolden just feels like a bribe to get RDM to be used more as it benefits the whole party except for other casters >.>] AND on top of that has superior DPS in actual fights because of how well they can deal with mechanics. But I see people especially focusing on the support utility that they bring with their cure and raise. But the thing is, I don't think that is what people should be focusing on or using to justify anything because in an ideal run of higher end content RDM shouldn't even need to use those utilities. Those aren't the utilities I have a problem with when I compare for example RDM and BLM. [my main, can't stand SMN so I have very little insight there] From their party utility alone [embolden] they should not be pulling highest caster DPS.

Blm needs a damage buff and it needs some adjustments on it's AF/UI timers and to Transpose's cooldown. A few changes to the cooldown on Aetherial Manipulation would be wonderful too. I want it to feel rewarding for playing BLM optimally by achieving high numbers. But the way BLM is now there's little payoff for a frustrating and limiting rotation that also feels extremely fragile. I [grudgingly] think it's a positive that less committed or able BLM players are able to achieve competent numbers but I am not seeing the same being granted to people that really work hard at practising and perfecting their job. Because those are the people that get the shitty end of the stick in this situation.So when there are people really busting their butts to do everything right and they're only pulling 200-300 DPS more than someone doing a rotation from 2 years ago. Or they look the other way and see RDM pulling better numbers while also offering party buffs [That I'm not invited to partake in! XD] with great mobility and on top of that, raises and cures for those just in case moments. Considering all this, being told that it's alright because I can AoE quicker in those 3 dungeons I'm gonna be sick to death of in 2 weeks is very little comfort indeed. I don't want RDM to be nerfed, I want SMN and BLM to be satisfying to play and to be viable. I don't think the way to fix this mess is to try to justify that SMN and BLM should also get heals cuz that counts "utility" and would somehow even the playing field. If you wanna folow that logic then we should all be allowed to use one Phoenix Down each per fight.

[ToasterMan]

RDM is suppose to be a jack of all trades master of none. Right now it's a master of everything. I don't play Black Mage anymore but it should defiantly be hitting way harder than it is right now.

[Ralgarog]

Please keep in mind that the current Red Mages who are at max level are veterans of the game or new highly skilled players who are able to exploit the narrow skill gap of the class. The new player who's never played an MMO before or the casual player probably is still leveling right now and probably wont be at max level until the 20th of July which is about 1 month from launch.

It is never a good idea to nerf a class based on the potential of the high end when there may be evidence that lower end and mid-tier players are going to begin struggling compared to other classes if those nerfs are instituted.

[Ralgarog]

With that said: For RDM specifically, it is a class where you win or you lose. There is no in-between. The mana balancing mechanic essentially forces a built in threshold where you cannot play the class as it should be played if you don't both build AND balance your colored mana. I constantly have to gimp my DPS because of transition periods. I have a 6 second window to use my heavy hitting spell (and i cannot choose to save it and use another spell in between). I understand that other classes have a similar issue, however i have found that paradoxically, the only time Red Mages are the highest DPS is when overall DPS of the group is within a certain range. Once Group DPS raises above a certain threshold, The effectiveness of the Red Mage to DPS around transitions and mechanics decreases dramatically. I am probably going to have to make a video demonstrating why this is a unique problem to the red mage due to the closeness of the skill floor and the skill ceiling.

[Ralgarog]

1) Make it so that Verholy and Verflare can be casted at any time for a fixed mana cost. However this particular Verflare and VerHoly has reduced potency...say 375, and gives you a debuff that reduces mana generation for the opposite color mana until that opposite color mana is pushed above a threshold. When this normal Verholy or Verflare is casted, it consumes -all- of the corresponding mana type. So to lets say Verflare requires 40 black mana to cast. If you cast it with 100 black mana, you now have 0 black mana. It may be required to allow mana over a certain point to increase the potency, up to lets say 550 potency at 100 black mana.

2) Rename the "old" Verholy and Verflare to "Enchanted Verholy" and "Enchanted Verflare" respectively and keep them exactly the same as the current Vernukes. Make it so that once the current requirement for Verholy and Verflare are reached (After enchanted redoublement) Both Verholy and Verflare becomes Enchanted Verholy and Enchanted Verflare.

[Ralgarog]

Effectively, these two changes would not change the optimum way to play the class. Obviously the damage of going through the redoublement combo -then- casting Enchanted Vernuke will, 100% of the time, be greater than a single 375 - 550 potency attack. However what this does is add a sub-optimal way to play the class that would not be a complete disaster. But this simple change would allow us to "purge" all of our mana in a single attack for reduced effect if required, and it allows room for artificially increasing the difficulty of the class.

I mentioned this earlier, but remember: The reason why Red Mages seem "easy" (and objectively speaking they are) is there is no way to be "kinda competent" at the job, similar to who a BLM or SMN can be "kinda good" without playing their class to the maximum potential.

[Kabooa]

Please keep in mind that the current Red Mages who are at max level are veterans of the game or new highly skilled players who are able to exploit the narrow skill gap of the class. The new player who's never played an MMO before or the casual player probably is still leveling right now and probably wont be at max level until the 20th of July which is about 1 month from launch.

It is never a good idea to nerf a class based on the potential of the high end when there may be evidence that lower end and mid-tier players are going to begin struggling compared to other classes if those nerfs are instituted.

Actually, you adjust game mechanics based on the top players. That's how competent design works. You have to see something being played at the absolute limit to know whether or not it does need to be adjusted, and how easily that absolute limit can be reached.