Stop rewarding tanks/healers! We all put in the same effort.

[Fynlar]

It's more like:

If tank is bad > you'll probably wipe, either because the tank can't mitigate and dies, or can't hold hate and lets mobs run amok
If healer is bad > you'll probably wipe, because DUH

If DPS are bad > generally speaking, you'll take a little bit longer to run the instance. Trash pack might take 50 seconds instead of 40 seconds to kill, or something. Woop. Unless your output is really, really bad or you're mishandling a mechanic that's critical enough to cause wipes, chances are nobody will even comment about it in the typical DF dungeon.

This is what makes tank/healer inherently more stressful. As DPS, unless you are running the latest extreme/savage content, any "pressure" you might feel about your damage output comes solely from yourself. Yes, there's DPS checks here and there, but not very many and they mostly exist in the harder content, not in most duty roulette content.

[RichardButte]

It's more like:

If tank is bad > you'll probably wipe, either because the tank can't mitigate and dies, or can't hold hate and lets mobs run amok
If healer is bad > you'll probably wipe, because DUH

If DPS are bad > generally speaking, you'll take a little bit longer to run the instance. Trash pack might take 50 seconds instead of 40 seconds to kill, or something. Woop. Unless your output is really, really bad or you're mishandling a mechanic that's critical enough to cause wipes, chances are nobody will even comment about it in the typical DF dungeon.

This is what makes tank/healer inherently more stressful. As DPS, unless you are running the latest extreme/savage content, any "pressure" you might feel about your damage output comes solely from yourself. Yes, there's DPS checks here and there, but not very many and they mostly exist in the harder content, not in most duty roulette content.

This.

DPS have inherently less pressure to deal with.

You can choose to be a good DPS and do things like stun mobs that are charging an AoE (like I do on my NIN), but if you don't do that, the group isn't going to wipe and it's not your "job" (especially not in roulettes).

[Avatre]

You can choose to be a good DPS and do things like stun mobs that are charging an AoE (like I do on my NIN), but if you don't do that, the group isn't going to wipe and it's not your "job" (especially not in roulettes).

Well, technically you can wipe of the DPS don't stun mobs charging a skill(not always an AoE). Take the Wasps for example, I try and stun any that start to cast Final Sting(now that the enemy list shows which one is casting something it's much easier to find)

[LineageRazor]

Well, technically you can wipe of the DPS don't stun mobs charging a skill(not always an AoE). Take the Wasps for example, I try and stun any that start to cast Final Sting(now that the enemy list shows which one is casting something it's much easier to find)

Tanks are well aware that DPS who actually stun nasty attacks are incredibly rare. When a tank pulls something like a Wasp, they're planning on stunning it themselves (unless they're counting on burning it down first, or think the healer can heal them through it). Up until 4.0, it was far more likely that DPS would render a mob stun-immune by using their stun for the OGCD damage. (Thankfully, SE made that less of an issue in 4.0 by removing the damage component from stun moves.)

I typically pull all four bees on Neverreap on PLD, fully aware that it's gonna be on me to stun all four of them (or Hallowed Ground). If you're an exception, a DPS that actually watches out for things to stun, that's awesome - but realize that no tank is counting on your stun unless they explicitly ask for it. We've long since learned better. :P

[Avatre]

I typically pull all four bees on Neverreap on PLD, fully aware that it's gonna be on me to stun all four of them (or Hallowed Ground). If you're an exception, a DPS that actually watches out for things to stun, that's awesome - but realize that no tank is counting on your stun unless they explicitly ask for it. We've long since learned better. :P

Oh, I know that 99% of tanks don't expect DPS to stun anything, especially since most don't. But on the same foot, I tend to see tanks NOT stunning at all. DRK/WAR really only have one: Low Blow(unless there is more...I admit I play my PLD more than either of the others), while PLD has two, Shield Bash and Low Blow. I rarely see a tank use any of them, even when it is something that NEEDS to be stunned.

[Kosmos992k]

Oh, I know that 99% of tanks don't expect DPS to stun anything, especially since most don't. But on the same foot, I tend to see tanks NOT stunning at all. DRK/WAR really only have one: Low Blow(unless there is more...I admit I play my PLD more than either of the others), while PLD has two, Shield Bash and Low Blow. I rarely see a tank use any of them, even when it is something that NEEDS to be stunned.

A lot of tanks learned about the bees in sunken temple of Qarn, where they could NOT be stunned out of final sting, and final sting was essentially a guaranteed death unless you were overgeared and at full health. Things have since been nerfed.... :/

WHM no longer has MP issues. We are now MP gods. :O

How so? I am only 53 on WHM so I am not aware of how the level 70 skillset balances, but it looks to me that without using thin air pretty liberally, you will be out of MP pretty easily?

[Syrehn]

How so? I am only 53 on WHM so I am not aware of how the level 70 skillset balances, but it looks to me that without using thin air pretty liberally, you will be out of MP pretty easily?

The combo of Lucid Dreaming and Thin Air keeps us pretty well off.

Popping them in succession allows us to gain our MP back while not spending any, which makes for great healing or even dps (i.e spamming holy on multi-mob trash pulls, or mass aoe healing).

I do occasionally come close to going dry in some of the EX fights, but only if the party is failing at mechanics and taking excessive unnecessary damage or if my healing partner is doing much less healing.

Edit: Totally forgot to mention Assize; another of our MP/Healing tools in our kit.

It's actually weird getting on AST and remembering I have to care about mana now.

I'm leveling AST now and you're right. It's weird. I find myself using Ewer more than I remember having to prior to SB.

[Serilda]

How so? I am only 53 on WHM so I am not aware of how the level 70 skillset balances, but it looks to me that without using thin air pretty liberally, you will be out of MP pretty easily?

Even though I'm supposed to be avoiding WHM in PVE due to my annoyance at the changes, it's totally true about MP. Thin Air comes up enough to be used a lot, Assize comes up more than it used to even if you actively ignore the annoying lilies and now it's always useful (since Cleric Stance doesn't matter), and at low level you now get the MP refresh ability earlier than before. Unless you're sitting on cooldowns there's no reason to ever run out of MP. It will probably be nerfed at some point. AST is in a nice spot with MP where it's strong but does require some basic management occasionally which is probably more realistic.

[Granyala]

The difference that people (I think) are referring to is internal vs. external stressors. If mobs are running willy nilly, the blame will (generally) fall straight on the tank. If people are dying, the blame will (generally) fall straight on the healer. If DPS is low you can say "damage is low" but without a parser you can't say which (or both) is low so it is not personal, you can just assume it's that OTHER guy that is bad.

Does that make sense?

Absolutely and this is why being against parsers is illogical.
Problem is: even with a parser, it takes knowedge, most of the community here lacks, to properly interpret the data. You can't just look at the overall DPS/damage done and draw conclusions solely from that. Most certainly not if you are trying to be helpful towards the DPS in question.

SE probably saw the parser thing as a no win scenario and opted for the lesser of 2 evils.

How so? I am only 53 on WHM so I am not aware of how the level 70 skillset balances, but it looks to me that without using thin air pretty liberally, you will be out of MP pretty easily?

Naah. You have 3 regen skills. And yes, you should use ex-machina very liberally. Like... on cooldown (unless too close to full). Only reason not to do that would be if a heavy AoE heal phase is imminent.

Only way to run out is hardcore holy/AoE heal spam.

[Kosmos992k]

DPS have inherently less pressure to deal with.

You can choose to be a good DPS and do things like stun mobs that are charging an AoE (like I do on my NIN), but if you don't do that, the group isn't going to wipe and it's not your "job" (especially not in roulettes).

Poor DPS either through lack of effort or lack of gear is a big issue in Boss fights. If a Boss drags on so you see the same mechanics cycle round many more times than normal, it starts to become a real issue for healers and their MP (WHM for example), and for tanks and their own resource issues. Because once you've blown all those cooldowns you depend on, the recast timers which are not in sync with the Boss mechanics, meaning that you may face tank busters and other high damage situations without a cooldown to use. Trash packs taking longer is one thing but a Boss fight that drags on for 2-3 times the 'normal' length is incredibly stressful for healers and tanks alike.

The prevalence of speed running should strongly suggest that I am not alone in my opinion that faster is better and that deliberately gating instances to slow completion times would be an unwelcome change.

Speed runs exist not to make runs easier, but to facilitate farming. You cannot claim that speed runs are inherently better, they are not, they simply facilitate you farming more drops, verity, or whatever else in less time overall.

this system is already in place, SE don't have to add a rward for the DPS if this happens, since it will automatically apply the bonus to the role in need - wich in this case would be DPS classes.

the only reward tanks get are the mounts. healers get no reward at all, besides the unicorn for lvl 30 Conjurers, wich was added at the launch of 2.0, since there was only 1 healer class pre-30. but it's so easy to get, that i don't think it really counts... the whole role in need bonus is not a tank or healer reward, it's a reward for the actual role in need to fill the duty finder queues. since nobody wants to play tank, tank is almost all the time the role in need. if people start playing tanks it will change to other roles automatically.

The tank mounts that were added required tanks to run end-game full party instances to obtain them. So in fact they only really benefitted tanks in end-game groups - where there was no real issue with a shortage of tanks. Running light party content through duty finder - which is where the shortage of healers and tanks bites was not rewarded through the mounts - otherwise I would have one. But since i am not a big fan of the drama and other stressy crap that comes with end-game, I don't and will probably never have the tank mount. I personally do not view it as a reward for tanks at all, it's a welfare handout to end-game tanks.