Is anyone else dying to get to Garlemald?

[Theodric]

Although. I do want us to visit Garlemald. Not necessarily as 'invading' it per se. Seems like pushing it bit too far, considering how the Eorzean alliance struggles with one legion - Legion that was lead half-assedly by uncaring loonie.

Mm. It's already a stretch that Ala Mhigo and Doma were liberated so easily - but that, at least, can largely be attributed to Zenos letting them be liberated easily. As it stands, though, a full on war with Garlemald should be something that the Warrior of Light and Scions seek to avoid at all cost. An incredible amount of people will perish on either side should it occur - and that's not including those who happen to be caught up in the middle of it all. Furthermore the Warrior of Light and Scions have already seen the bitter consequences of a thousand year long war where Ishgard is concerned.

Doma and Ala Mhigo have been liberated. If they do not attempt diplomacy at this point then they have very little moral high ground to stand on and will simply be falling prey to the same bitter hatred that consumed Ishgard. It'll merely be a case of replacing 'Dravanians' with 'Garleans'.

I'd be all for working with someone like Larsa who values peace between Eorzea and Garlemald. Larsa is particularly great since he remained loyal to his homeland and people. He did not defect, he genuinely wanted peace and diplomacy to be embraced whilst putting an end to the rot that existed not only within his own homeland but outside of it as well. Applying that to FFXIV, we've already seen countless examples of rotten figures within Eorzea and Othard but we've also seen numerous examples of good people along the way. It'll be no different with Garlemald - I have no doubt in that regard. The Warrior of Light should have little doubt either since he's encountered the likes of Regula and Baut who are wholly reasonable, honourable individuals.

Which means a full on war is not the way to go at all.

As far as Garlemald itself goes...I do get 'Midgar' vibes from what little we've seen of the place on the official world map. I also suspect that the capital itself will be much more advanced than the military fortifications we've seen in foreign territories. With that said, though, even they're pretty advanced - and whilst it's not as advanced as the Allagan stuff we've seen in the likes of Azyz Lla it's pretty close.

[YianKutku]

We wouldn't be as technologically advanced without war, the most technologically advanced nations in history built that up out of necessity.

Broken window fallacy.

War tends to advance scientific research into militarily useful fields, that eventually get expanded into civilian uses in peacetime; the example that gets brought up is GPS. However, this also tends to freeze research into more blue-sky goals, like curing cancer or eradicating smallpox. This is also not including the damage war does to infrastructure, including that necessary for research.

In FFXIV, we've already seen one example of peace causing stagnation, viz the Allagan Empire. However, their wartime innovations cannot be said to be wholly beneficial (obviously), and we do know that Xande's attempts to speed up progress by executing one member of his research staff every day until they produced results is probably not the most efficient way of enhancing scientific research in all areas.

Overall, it is usually unquestioned that war brings with it much evil, regardless of the intent or justification. The debate is whether it is a necessary evil; anti-war proponents question the "necessary" part. Garlemald hiring Roegadyn battlemages to defend themselves against Hyuran raiders is probably necessary; Garlemald using magitek to conquer two and a half continents is probably not.

The War of the Sisters between Ul'dah and Sil'dih was four centuries ago. Ul'dah did commit at least one atrocity during the war - they used Traders' Spurn to turn the Sil'dihns into zombies.

There's also another incident that may or may not rise to the level of "atrocity", but is generally seen as pretty terrible. Before Ul'dah and Sil'dih were formally founded, the eventual prince of Sil'dih used the aetheryte network to ambush his enemy. The eventual prince of Ul'dah then destroyed an aetheryte while it was in use, causing eight hundred enemy soldiers to vanish without a trace.

This was seen as unconscionable enough that the Sharlayans, who set up the aetheryte network in the first place, shut down the whole thing until the civil war ended. I would not be surprised if this incident contributed greatly to Sharlayan's current isolationism, and its belief that Eorzeans are all warlike barbarians. After all, we clearly haven't shown any marked improvement in the six hundred years since.

[Matriqona]

-snip-

Pushing the idea that Eorzean Alliance could take and occupy Garlemald, is I think putting the suspension of disbelief inch too far away. It's like akin to writing a story how Mexico and Canada conquered the United States.

Another interesting thing at the moment though, is complete lacking of actual Garlean characters (By that I'm referring to once actually on the side of Garlean Empire.) There's the emperor but that's it.
I wonder, if they'll or when they will add new Garlean characters. We require our daily dose of big scary Garleans in their overly stylized 'cool' armors.

[Kallera]

Pushing the idea that Eorzean Alliance could take and occupy Garlemald, is I think putting the suspension of disbelief inch too far away. It's like akin to writing a story how Mexico and Canada conquered the United States.

Another interesting thing at the moment though, is complete lacking of actual Garlean characters (By that I'm referring to once actually on the side of Garlean Empire.) There's the emperor but that's it.
I wonder, if they'll or when they will add new Garlean characters. We require our daily dose of big scary Garleans in their overly stylized 'cool' armors.

I'm kinda hoping there are some characters that are garleans, but aren't inhuman....and not Cid.
I think I've come to hate Cid more than any other character involved. And it's not even a real hate like Thancred, but rather...he had the choice we do not, and apparently will never... have.

[EdwinLi]

----

There are most likely a lot of good Garleans within Garlemald but can not escape nor defect from Garlemald because they have no means of leaving Garlemald or they believe they can change things from within their government system.

Every single Good Garlean we have met so far have only been able to escape and defect from Garlean Empire because they either had a personal means of transportation such as Cid and his airship or was already outside of Garlemald within a position to defect mostly as a member of a military sector.

It is very common tend right now that all Good garleans we know are Defectors.

[Kallera]

There are most likely a lot of good Garleans within Garlemald but can not escape nor defect from Garlemald because they have no means of leaving Garlemald or they believe they can change things from within their government system.

Every single Good Garlean we have met so far have only been able to escape and defect from Garlean Empire because they either had a personal means of transportation such as Cid and his airship or was already outside of Garlemald within a position to defect mostly as a member of a military sector.

It is very common tend right now that all Good garleans we know are Defectors.

I kinda find that ridiculous. especially if reform is what we (possibly) want. I guess were just that much a monster over there.

I just don't see a point, or anything we could replace it with. I see the point of reformation, but destroying the country feels terrible, and not the sort of terrible you can just reflect on in an afternoon and celebrate in the evening with Cid.

[Theodric]

They gave us the perfect candidate for a better relationship with Garlemald in the form of Regula. Then, just as they had him prove his heroic and honourable nature...they killed him off. It just baffles me. So far there hasn't been any acknowledgement of his sacrifice in the aftermath of his death. Part of me is concerned that he was only killed off to tie in with Yoshi-P trying to speak on behalf of players as to who they should and should not sympathise with. It really does feel heavy handed.

I'll retract the statement if something major comes of it such as Elidibus taking on the appearance of Regula to manipulate and toy with Varis...or the Scions decide to remember what Regula did for them and repay the favour by helping out a Garlemald aligned Garlean with a mutual problem in a similar manner. As it stands, though, if Elidibus isn't taking on Regula's appearance then the entire thing feels like a waste of a solid character. If Elidibus isn't pulling that particular trick then Regula could have stumbled upon the meeting with Elidibus, expressed his concerns to Varis and then perhaps after being told it was a 'necessity' he could have sought out the Warrior of Light in an attempt to find some way to prevent yet another Ascian tugging the strings of a prominent leader figure. It could simply be framed as Regula seeking to protect and save his beloved friend.

I'm also surprised that nobody in the main cast stops to consider that maybe the Ascians are behind all of the conflict. Especially since that is correct. Elidibus first manipulated the Warriors of Darkness and then gave the Eyes of Nidhogg to Ilberd. Did the Scions even work out how he got them? He was holding them in the final cutscene of Baelsar's Wall, if I recall correctly. The Griffin's actions brought forth Shinryu which Zenos then exploited as a consequence. Then, of course, there's Omega.

It just feels 'off' to me. They know full well that Elidibus is out there somewhere...along with other Ascians.

[EdwinLi]

----

I suspect it is because they lack knowledge about how far the Ascian influence reach because in official History the Ascian do not exist in records. To the majority and Scions the events of the war was all done through natural conflict and personal interests without some magical ghost whispering devilish words into their ears.

It also would be very far fetched if some person just showed up and said "Hey recorded history is wrong! The ones responsible for all the world's chaos and destruction throughout the eras are a bunch of Evil Ghost Cult called Ascians who worship this God called Zodiark."

[YianKutku]

A lot of stories especially sci-fi ones cover themes like this, ever since the atomic bomb people assume technological progress will be humanities downfall.

Pre-dates WW2: R.U.R., the first robot rebellion story (and which gave us the term "robot" to mean automatons; these first "robots" were biological, however), was written in 1920. I'm sure there are even earlier examples; if you squint a bit, the biblical Tower of Babel (and whatever myths inspired it) might count.

There are most likely a lot of good Garleans within Garlemald but can not escape nor defect from Garlemald because they have no means of leaving Garlemald or they believe they can change things from within their government system.

I'd be satisfied with examples of Garleans who may not be considered wholly "good", but at least are not completely terrible. Maybe they have flaws, maybe they have the arrogant dismissal of Eorzeans as savages, but they don't execute their subordinates on the spot for the slightest mistakes or rule through fear or are just insufferably evil for the sake of being evil.

I'd actually like to see a "good Garlean", honourable and kind and cares for their underlings and peers, who is nevertheless still an enemy, and who believes deeply in the Empire of Garlemald. As mentioned many times, Regula would fit, but he got killed off, so it's something of a waste. Rhitatyn didn't even get any characterization before he got dogpiled in Cape Westwind.

It's kind of tiring to see the usual cliche of having all the morally righteous characters be either on our side or working with us, and all the opponents be horrible people for no reason other than that they're on the other side.

I'm also surprised that nobody in the main cast stops to consider that maybe the Ascians are behind all of the conflict. Especially since that is correct. Elidibus first manipulated the Warriors of Darkness and then gave the Eyes of Nidhogg to Ilberd. Did the Scions even work out how he got them? He was holding them in the final cutscene of Baelsar's Wall, if I recall correctly. The Griffin's actions brought forth Shinryu which Zenos then exploited as a consequence. Then, of course, there's Omega.

As far as I can tell, the Scions still have no idea how the Ascians got the Eyes. All the Ishgardians (Hilda, Aymeric) say that they didn't think anything could survive down in the abyss, and Alphinaud notes that "no mortal could endure such conditions". Then they decide that it doesn't matter, and the important thing is to deal with the present situation rather than speculate on the past. (Aymeric does apologize for telling you to toss the Eyes off the bridge.)

Even stranger is how the game implies that it wasn't Elidibus who retrieved the Eyes personally, but that he was given them by the Warriors of Darkness. Which I suppose technically still fits the "no mortal" bit, but I'm not sure how the Warriors of Darkness actually managed that feat.

In any case, I think the Scions are well aware that behind every major crisis to Hydaelyn, there's an Ascian (or more) behind it. They just can't really do anything about it at the moment, since the Ascians can come and go as they please, and it requires a lot of preparation just to track one down, much less defeat them.

And when it comes to the Garlean Empire, a lot of their evil deeds can be easily explained as general imperial terrible-ness, without need for Ascian conspiracies.

As for the antagonists, Gaius may have known, but was desperate for a way to contain Primals. Thordan definitely knew, but didn't care (and managed to successfully betray the Ascians anyway). The Warriors of Darkness knew, and were deliberately counting on it. Ilberd may or may not have known, but was obsessed enough not to care either. Varis probably also knew, but I don't think he cares.

All of them seem to have the usual villainous arrogance of believing that surely even the Warrior of Light cannot stop them this time.