Is anyone else dying to get to Garlemald?

[ToasterMan]

You guys are making me want to go play civ 6 or total war

They need a Total War: Final Fantasy 14. I'd play it

[Galvuu]

For all their faults and flaws, however, the Eorzean city-states share one thing in common: they do not go on bloody wars of conquest for its own sake. Garlemald uses the problem of primals as an excuse to conquer and subjugate people.

Ala Mhigo invaded Gridania with the very motive of conquest x)
Ul'Dah also had a fairly recent war with Sil'Dih- for natural resources, granted, but wasn't that what motivated Garlemald in the first place?
Until they felt threatened by the primals, which then spiralled in this... mess.

Like I said, Garlemald has innumerable crimes to atone for- but so does Eorzea.

[Cilia]

None of the Eorzean city-states have gone on bloody wars of conquest for its own sake in the past century, if you're going to be pedantic about it.

The Summer War was a century ago. The Gridanians have forgiven the Ala Mhigans for it as well, as is addressed early on in Stormblood.

The War of the Sisters was four centuries ago.

The Garleans have been trying to invade off and on for the past twenty years.

I never said Eorzea was a perfect place or without sin. Still, the more benevolent side of their government tries to do right these days despite the social problems - the same cannot be said of Garlemald, who... well, you played 4.0, right?

[Kallera]

Ala Mhigo invaded Gridania with the very motive of conquest x)
Ul'Dah also had a fairly recent war with Sil'Dih- for natural resources, granted, but wasn't that what motivated Garlemald in the first place?
Until they felt threatened by the primals, which then spiralled in this... mess.

Like I said, Garlemald has innumerable crimes to atone for- but so does Eorzea.

Adding to this.
The Kobolds would have something to say about the Lominsan expansion into the island of Vylbrand.

And if the Sahagin didn't have somewhere for their young they would go extinct, so it is literally a matter of survival for them.

[Cilia]

Yeah, Limsa expanding into the Kobolds' territory despite a treaty and then making us go accept responsibility for their actions really pissed me off.

Again, never said Eorzea was blameless. Just that they're better than Garlemald.

[Kyran-Varlsen]

I find the comparisons with the two groups all over the place. Garlemald is currently a united Empire with territory that was largely uncontested in its own provinces until Stomblood. The Eorzean city states are barely countries when we start ARR. Each major city is surrounded by a slew of smaller settlements but otherwise the borders on the map don't do justice to the fact that large swathes of territory are under the control or contested by Beast Tribes. So what each faction does on its own is reflective of these individual circumstances. And going back centuries for invasions does seem a tad unproductive as the situation was different back then - there were more City States and the Garlean Empire was a Republic up until 50 or so years ago (I believe).

As for the Lominsan land dispute with the Kobolds, this is not unexpected given the push-back from the Sahagins when Leviathan wiped out an entire settlement and the Sahagin set up breeding grounds there. That said, I wonder why we have not seen a more visible presence by those who would profiteer from such a land grab. No one ever points to a settlement and says "under our treaty with the Kobolds that should not be there."

When all is said and done, I find that the City States of Eorzea are more amenable than the Garlean Empire and do make an effort to fix their flaws rather than step on dissenters. The Grand Companies all support your efforts (well, cheer your efforts) to work with the Beast Tribes and there is hope for better relations later thanks to the actions of the player.

[Theodric]

Again, Garlemald wasn't always a sprawling Empire. It bears extremely humble roots based on persecution. The Garleans could not use magic. They were forced to live in a wasteland.

Have any of you watched The Walking Dead or played the Fallout games? I ask because when people are forced to live in a wasteland and every day becomes a bitter struggle it understandably erodes away and changes one's morality if they wish to endure and survive. The Garleans would not have become bitter, xenophobic and cynical if they had not been repeatedly pushed to the brink of extinction. They would not have a superiority complex if they were not ridiculed and persecuted for being unable to wield magic. If they had a Warrior of Light to solve all their problems then things may have turned out differently.

It's easy to look down upon them for their choices, but ultimately for a race pushed to the brink of extinction their survival at any cost matters more to them than taking the moral high ground. It's really no different to how Ishgard operated. How many atrocities were committed and justified during the Dragonsong War? A battle that lasted a thousand years and resulted in the deaths of countless Ishgardians? Not just death, either - but persecution. The Archbishop had enough of that and sought to become an Eikon for the sake of the greater good. He lied and manipulated his people to shield them from the truth of the war's origins too.

Ishgard only survived that because of the Warrior of Light stepping in. If he hadn't, the Archbishop would have slain Lahabrea and returned to Ishgard. He may or may not have slain Nidhogg. Given his nature as a Primal, though, he would have drained the land of Aether and turned his beloved home into a wasteland starved of Aether.

Any of the summoned Primals could have succeeded at gaining colossal amounts of power and rampaging across Eorzea, slaughtering countless innocents. What do you think the leaders of the City States would do then, eh? Even if they refused to resort to desperate measures there is a strong possibility that someone would step in and force their hand. Or just slay them outright in a coup. The alternative, without a Warrior of Light to serve as a convenient instant fix is pretty much that.

You can brush it all off as hypothetical, but Eorzea's own history shows that similar desperate measures have been taken in the name of survival. The War of the Magi, for instance. The war between Ul'dah and Sil'dah. Ala Mhigo's attempt to conquer Gridania. Ishgard's bitter struggle against Nidhogg.

Do you think the men and women trapped in Dusk Vigil took to cannibalism lightly when their hand was forced? Do you think the bandits who stole and killed to provide food and wealth for their families weren't without second thoughts?

It's easy to judge people for their decisions in life, to claim the moral high ground and state that you would never do such a terrible thing. When it comes to survival, though - you either adapt or die. There's countless stories about normal people being survivors of plane crashes and resorting to cannibalism in a desperate effort to cling to their lives until aid workers found them. Cannibalism is a horrific act in itself - but the justifications are always the same. They wanted to live. To survive. To see their loved ones just one more time. It seems like some of the people here would have them put down or imprisoned, though given the desperate attempts to ignore the established nuances in FFXIV's setting.

[Cilia]

I don't recall it ever being said anywhere the Garleans were pushed to the brink of extinction - just that they were pushed into largely inhospitable territory. There is a difference between a motive and a justification - the Garleans have more than likely reversed their fortunes to the point they no longer need to conquer more territory to live in relative comfort and safety. They do anyway.

The Warrior of Light also doesn't solve all of Eorzea's (and Othard's) problems. For the most part they just stop the world from ending. Ul'dah is still a virtual plutocracy, Limsa is still infested with pirates, Gridania is still a slave to the Elementals, Ishgard is on the road to recovery but still has its class struggles, and it's far too early to tell how the reborn Doma and Ala Mhigo will turn out.

There is no difference between what is right and what is necessary.

[Theodric]

They were forced out of fertile lands and made to live in a wasteland where each day was confirmed to be a bitter struggle that kept their numbers very low due to harsh elements and difficulty working the land for food. So it's most definitely a case of them being pushed to near extinction as a consequence. Add in roaming monsters and attacks by their neighbours who saw them as easy pickings due to their inability to wield magic. If they had not discovered magitek then they could very well have all perished or been wiped out completely.

Did they go too far with their conquests? Arguably, yes - but that didn't come out of nowhere. They sought vengeance and to put their own people first and foremost after years and years of being pushed around. Ala Mhigo, meanwhile, simply sought to conquer because they could - they had no noble purpose behind it. Garlemald also seeks a solution to the Eikon threat, which by all accounts is one of the most dire threats facing Hydaelyn in the present day. The Warrior of Light cannot be everywhere at once - and so far he has proven to be very biased in terms of favouring Eorzea above all else despite the Eikons being a global threat. With the story moving to include Othard this has changed the stakes somewhat, though.

[Cilia]

You are again running on the assumption the Garleans were pushed to the brink of extinction. We do not know this to be truth.

Again, starting up wars for the sake of vengeance leads to nothing good (see: Dragonsong War). Take back the territory you originally held and end it there. Repatriation is a noble goal; conquest is not.

Trying to deal with the primals is a good thing. Deeming genocide an acceptable solution is not. With their ability to produce Resonant Echo users the Garleans now have their own solution that doesn't require genocide.