Is anyone else dying to get to Garlemald?

[Alleo]

SE choice to make Garleans Muhahahah Evil in 4.0 this time around was more because the development of Garlean Characters were starting to shown too much of their Good side too soon in the storyline when the WoL has yet to enter Garlemald and actually learn directly what goes on in Garlean Society.

If anything I think they are trying to make players just purely hate Garleans until they enter Garlemald to reveal that the citizens are being lied to about what goes on outside of Garlemald by having the Garlean Media only showing Citiznes false information and deleting all information about horrible abuses and crimes the Garlean Military commits while intentionally removing people who would try to expose these crimes or make their society look like the bad guys.

Also about the Third Reich's fall, a part of History never covered most often is the aftermath of what happened in Germany where the Citizens of Germany had to pay the price for what the Third Reich did but as learned from the after math a lot of Bad information was cut from civilian from their crimes to use of people as test subjects thus the majority of the civilian population were ignorant of the crimes commited by the Third Reich to make the Third Reich look like good people

Though not all members of the Nazis were bad people but they were mostly stick in their position because if they have left or betrayed the Third Reich their families that are left behind would suffer the consequence and be called traitors.

Where did they ever showed the good side of the empire? Also they already said that they made Zenos that way because people liked Gaius even though SE never intended for him to be seen that way. So no even Gaius, the one that a lot of people like because they can agree with his ideas, was not meant to be seen that positive. Also if you go down to it, he did a lot of things for the good of Garlemald (drop a meteor on Eorzea and there is nothing to rule over, make a mass murder poison, and there are no people left to rule over. Nothing of this screams: I find it morally wrong to do) And lets not forget that he was the one that gave the order to raid the base of the scions and as someone that knows his followers he should have known that they would show no mercy. Thus he was fine with countless people being killed. If they were part of a city state or a rebellion against Garlemald then I could have understood them but they were neutral and only tried to find a solution against the primals. There was no reason to kill all of those people (and even that poor sylph). Also he more than once showed that he saw Eorzea and their people as less. Savages is a word that Garlemald loves to use a lot.

Before ARR: Conquering the world because everyone should be under their rule, kill Middy and break the seal of the lake thus making it easier to summon primals, wanted to drop a moon on Eorzea (and where only stopped because of the old WoLs and the old man). Bahamut freeing itself also killed countless of people and threw the continent back some years and even today people still feel the consequences of this catastrophe. If they would have succeeded with their moon droping another true calamity would have been done and thus a whole shard would have been destroyed (thus billions of lives lost), conquered part of Eorzea and threw lots of people into poverty thanks to that.

ARR: Slyphs summoned Ramuh because Garlean soldiers destroyed the forest they live in and they are afraid for their lifes. Raid of the scion base, killing countless of people because of that. Are saying that they want to kill echo users for this ability. Working together with the Ascians and are using Ultima, a weapon of mass destruction, to make the city states surrender. The destructions of Bahamuts rage are still felt around Eorzea and is the reason for a lot of conflicts between Eorzea and the wild tribes. (Sahagin losing their breeding ground thanks to that)

HW: Showing their wish that they want to kill of all wild tribes just because there is a possibility that they could summon a primal thus wanting to commit Genocide. (There is nothing that much shown about the empire in HW that I remember but the only good deed someone did was the sacrifice of Regula against Zurvan)

So not to be pedantic but could you give some major examples of the good side of the empire in ARR and HW? Because in the end when I look at it, I never saw true good things from then and they are the indirect and direct reasons for a lot of problems in Eorzea.

Also not to sound mean but I am from Germany so no need to teach me about that part of our history. And I already wrote that I believe that Garlemald itself might have a good amount of innocent citizens but that does not change my opinion that the government itself needs to change otherwise I cant see how we would truly work together.

About Third Reich: Yes some might have not known about all the bad stuff that was going on but people cant just go around and say that they did not know about the imprisonment of Jews and some villages are even near those killing camps so nobody can tell me that they did not know something. Also there were probably a lot of people that are just simply racists and at the very beginning people also loved the though of war because they felt that they had to pay too much after the first world war. In the end you will always have a part of people that are really behind the dictator and love to do everything for them, you have part that believes that nothing is wrong and that go on their life until they see what truly happened (which is probably not the majority of people) and you will have people that know whats happening but are too afraid to do anything. And then there will be a part of people that are trying to do something against it.

The side quest Black rose really hit me hard because they really showed the parallels of Garlemald and the Third Reich. In the Third Reich we had a rebellion called White Rose, which were students that were against the regime but the two siblings that lead them were later killed for that. I do believe that Black rose is a hint towards this, especially since it was about experiments on prisoners.

Also lets not forget that pure blood Garleans are blond or white haired. The Third Reich had a belief that blond haired and blue eyed people are the true master race. Also they looked down on other races for being less superior. This happens with Garlemald too. Everyone that is not a pure blood will not get the same rights as them and they even want to kill of the beast man and call people of Eorzea Savages too. There are many parallels to our real life thus I just cant see them as good.

I am not saying that anyone that is a Garlean fan is a bad person or something. There is always that kind of lure to side with the bad guys. But at least right now they are the bad guys and they did a lot of horrible things that at least the current leaders of Eorzea would never do.

The Garleans aren't enemies of Hydaelyn... yet. If Varis continues to work with Elidibus that could very easily change. I hope to high Heaven it doesn't, but one should prepare for the worst.

Well one could argue that them killing Middy and thus destroying the seal was bad for Hydaelyn. Also even if Nael was a bit crazy, letting a moon fall on any country was something that higher ups needed to give their okay too. If the moon had fallen on Eorzea we would have another true calamity but even just Bahamut must have damaged the land and Hydaelyn a lot. And it created a lot of conflicts which were the reasons for summoning more primals. Also we know of some primals that are summoned because they are afraid of Garlemald.

And I agree with you. Just because they had it bad in the past gives them no right to the things they do today. First they come from a whole different continent so if they wanted to take revenge on those that pushed them back they could have just conquered their continent and be done with it. But like a lot of states in real life, they got greedy with their power and wanted more. They saw how technological advanced they are and thought that everyone not Garleans is bellow them and need their rule. They also showed more than enough in SB that they dont care about the culture of their conquered countries and wanted only one ideal to live on: theirs. They could have gone the way to use their technology in trading thus getting the resources that they are missing, there was no need for war.

And before someone says it, I know that the states in Eorzea area also not free of racism and other stuff. But at least they still try to find better solutions instead of Genocide and other than Ala Mhigo they also never tried to conquer the world.

[Theodric]

They've showed the good side of Garlemald at multiple points. It's nobody's fault but their own if they deliberately choose to ignore that. Furthermore the comparisons to Nazi Germany don't really help - they're largely fueled by emotional bias. I'm not saying it's the case here, mind you, but elsewhere on the internet it has become rather common for people to make comparisons to Nazi Germany in an attempt to shut down an opponent's argument because it's easier to paint the opposition as Nazi sympathisers instead of understanding their point of view or recognising that the world is a lot more nuanced than many like to believe.

Gaius and Regula have already proven themselves to be honourable. There's also a side quest in one of the liberated settlements that has the inhabitants threaten to kick out the Eorzean Alliance and Ala Mhigan Resistance because the Garlean in charge of the place treated them very well. That same officer also points out that whilst some areas - such as Doma and Ala Mhigo - are cesspits of suffering there are other places that are largely unchanged and prosper under Garlean rule.

Garlemald isn't a case of black morality. It needs reform, yes, but that has been the case with pretty much every single region we have encountered so far in-game. Even Varis is being portrayed as having shades of grey - first with Regula's revelations about the Emperor and then with Varis writing off his own heir as a monster.

[Kallera]

I'm not about to use irl references. But Ul'dah totally engaged in chemical warfare, against Sil'Dih. Gridania has torture chambers in their jail cells(and the occasional residential manor), and Limsa, even after allegedy removing its history of piracy, has been known to play fast and loose with agreements and treaties.

Yes, there is no nation that is perfect, but when the local priest is a few crystals and "one bad day" away from summoning their god, I can see where one would get the idea that drastic measures need to be taken, because the Warrior of Light won't be around forever.

It surprises me that there is one nation that has its answer, as poor as it is, but if we going in there as occupiers and forcing our will and grievences upon them...we get into the realm of slaughtering people en masse, with us at the forefront of it. I don't want to enable that, I'd rather leave the Scions than that.

[Alleo]

They've showed the good side of Garlemald at multiple points. It's nobody's fault but their own if they deliberately choose to ignore that. Furthermore the comparisons to Nazi Germany don't really help - they're largely fueled by emotional bias. I'm not saying it's the case here, mind you, but elsewhere on the internet it has become rather common for people to make comparisons to Nazi Germany in an attempt to shut down an opponent's argument because it's easier to paint the opposition as Nazi sympathisers instead of understanding their point of view or recognising that the world is a lot more nuanced than many like to believe.

Gaius and Regula have already proven themselves to be honourable. There's a side quest in one of the liberated settlements that has the inhabitants threaten to kick out the Eorzean Alliance and Ala Mhigan Resistance because the Garlean in charge of the place treated them very well. That same officer also points out that whilst some areas - such as Doma and Ala Mhigo - are cesspits of suffering there are other places that are largely unchanged and prosper under Garlean rule.

But even when I ask people to tell us about the good points (and take my time to write down the bad ones) nobody truly shows them. I know that one is biased (like I said I am from Germany so the parallels are way more obvious for me but maybe I am reading more than it should be) but people that like Garlemald are really biased too. I even said that I dont think that the citizens itself are bad but that the leaders and government is, so its not like I am saying: OMG all Garlean people needs to be killed. But I am seeing way more negatives sides of them than good and at the same time nobody truly writes down the good ones. Its always: Well Eorzea did x things too, so it feels more like wanting to show Eorzea in a bad light to make Garlemald less bad, but all that I want is showing us the good points.

And sorry but you cant just ignore the big parallels to Nazi Germany: Race supremacy, Genocide of races because they are seen as lesser beings, using bad means to get the ends, the experiments on prisoners, only allowing the way of Garlemald, and even quest names like Black rose. If you want to go down to it, they even have the blond hair color. I am not saying that Garlmald is Third Reich but you cant just say that it has nothing in common with it and that the story writers did not have such a dictatorship as their inspiration.

About Gaius: He may have been honorable in some cases but he was not all about honor. He did a lot of things that are good for Garlemald and lets not forget that SE itself did not want us to see him in that good of a light. Regula would have been an interesting NPC but he got killed way to fast.

You always say that you want more nuances and write it like us that are against Garlemald cant see nuances. But I wrote more than enough times that I know that not every person in Garlemald is bad. When I talk about it, I mean leader, the government. And right now there is nothing truly good about it. Also a whole world should never be only be black and white but you cant just always have everything in grey either. You will still have enemies and friends that are tending more to one or the other side. And for me Garlmald is on the bad side with some small points for it.

Also Garlemald had it bad in the past on their continent. It was their own decisions to go further than that and try to conquer the whole world. War will always be bad. Be it for vengeance, in the name of a god or just because there is money to be had. Even if they had a reason to take revenge on some tribes in their country it never gave them the right to conquer the rest of the world. And primals never give them the right to kill of all the beast tribes, or kill echo users. HW should have taught us that taking revenge for being treated bad will never end well. Thats why we have our justice system to stop people on doing it themselves and only creating more problem with it.

And the quest you are talking about is not about threating them well while they stayed there but they wanted to protect him because he ordered his soldiers to leave without a fight thus saving the lives of the people. Yet if you talk with the people in this village you will also hear negative points about the occupation of the Garlean. And the rule in games is: Show dont tell. You can tell me that Garlemald is building a utopia in Garlemald where everyone is living their lives in peace and harmony but when you see the complete opposite in the story you cant believe it. Who knows how its truly in those states. Maybe it only feels like that for the people that grew up under Garlemald and not for those that were there before it. Maybe they changed it for the better for some people but those might not have noticed what happened with other parts that did not agree with it.

We have a quite nuanced Eorzea. All know that the city states are not without their bad points. You are even shown these points in the story and some of them are even called out for this. But Eorzea also do a lot of good and the current governments are mostly good people too. Gridanias leader healed Garlean soldiers after Bahamut burned everything down and they are all shocked about Garlemald shooting at its own people. Also other than old Ala Mhigo none tried to go and conquer the world. Even after all that Garlemald did they still did not go to war against them because they knew about the consequences. They only started it because of Ilberts actions. So they are the grey countries that you want. They kinda are like real life countries too. Having their intern problems, not solving everything perfectly, make mistakes but at least try to do good. And then you have Garlemald that is going way beyond anything than Eorzea ever did. I am quite sure that you would not like such a country in real life. I mean we see stuff like that in a way with North Korea but they at least dont conquer the world.

I'm not about to use irl references. But Ul'dah totally engaged in chemical warfare, against Sil'Dih. Gridania has torture chambers in their jail cells(and the occasional residential manor), and Limsa, even after allegedy removing its history of piracy, has been known to play fast and loose with agreements and treaties.

Yes, there is no nation that is perfect, but when the local priest is a few crystals and "one bad day" away from summoning their god, I can see where one would get the idea that drastic measures need to be taken, because the Warrior of Light won't be around forever.

The problem with Uldah is that this was something of the past. The Uldah today would probably not use something like that. I would get behind a Garlemald that changed and tries to solve problems different, so I am not someone that says: Once bad always bad. But even current Garlemald is just doing lots of bad stuff. And yes no city state in Eorzea is truly good, but no current state do so much bad than the current Garlemald. I mean they could have used the information about the poisons for their own but instead they burned every information because they never want to create something like that.

And no city state (minus Thordan) has ever summoned their own primal and lots of the current primal problems can be traced back to Garlemald too. And no slaughter is never a good solution. The beast tribes are not summoning them out of fun. They are summoning them out of fear for their future. Eorzea did make some bad mistakes with the beast tribes but at least they try to solve these selfmade problems with talking. But Eorzea also cant do much if they constantly have to fear the attack of Garlemald and still have to recover from the last catastrophe.

[Kallera]

Within their borders, they certainly have had revolutions in Archetecture, particularly in building speed. The magitek industry has revolutionized life to the point of making countries outside of it seem quaint, they engage in commerce and trade, particularly in food, and they keep the nasty critters and primal summoning louts away.

Just like real life does, not everyone is going to cling to hokey traditions and ancient beliefs when tangible solutions are there before them, and for those that work within the system(much like any other country on Hydaelyn), there can be a lot of benefits.

[Theodric]

Rather than compare Garlemald to Nazi Germany I feel like a better comparison is the Roman or British Empire. Elements of both can be seen within Garlemald itself - from the use of a specific 'upper class' British accent for Garlean Purebloods as well as the use of Latin/pseudo-Latin for naming conventions and the whole military being based outright on the Roman's military.

Now, were the British or Roman Empire perfect? Not at all, though they were necessary forces in terms of driving civilisation forward to the point where even in the modern day you see their influence across the civilised world in terms of culture, language, currency and architecture. Garlemald, thus far, has proven to be the most advanced organisation upon the face of Hydaelyn in the 'present day'. One way or another it is going to leave it's mark upon Hydaelyn, both in positive and negative terms.

Speaking of Empires, though...time for me to go play FFXII - The Zodiac Age and fawn over The Archadian Empire once more!

[Alleo]

Oh I agree that they have also something in common with the roman empire. SE probably took inspiration from a lot of empires and dictatorships but one cant just ignore all the parallels to that one regime. Especially about their race supremacy and the planned Genocide. And lets not forget all the horrible experiments on their own soldiers and prisoners. Not sure that roman and British empire did do something like that. In the end they are kinda like a lot of dictatorships. No true free will, do what the government says and only believe what they do.

Oh the Chinese had this one too. That one ruler wanted to bring forward a New Age just to get to the standard of the western world. It just killed millions of his own people and made people fight each other. It did bring China forward but does the end justify such means? I dont believe so. Also lets not forget that we have a lake in that one zone near a Garlemald outpost that looks horrible. You cant even fish in this. So not sure if they are so good for the planet too. And their methods like the moon fall and stuff like that surely was also not good for the planet.

Its all nice that they got themselves technologically advanced but they dont have the right to force it on other countries. What harm would it do that Gridania still lives in harmony with the forest? Or that they want to travel per chocobo? Maybe instead of war they could be trading with other countries and advancing them in some points thanks to that because technology itself is not evil, it just depends on how to use it. So there could be some good ways to use magitek but no country should be forced into the same rules that Garlemald have. You could again compare this to real life. Technology has done a lot of good but at the same time the planet is suffering immensely from that. Us living more like some native people would be less comfortable for us but way better for nature itself.

So if they want to work that way in their own country its fine. But going around and wanting your ideal and your culture as the only one way is just wrong and you can see it with Ala Mhigo. Instead of using their building style they take that away from them (leaving them without work and thus creating the problem with the rebellion themselves) and only want their building style.

Also we know thanks to Hydaelyns History that the Allagans as the technological evolved race, were their own downfall. They are a great parallel to Garlemald since they loved war too and were not against gruesome experiments. And in real life no real world wide empire lasted forever because problems will arise and I believe that those intern problems will become the downfall of the recent Garlemald government too.

[Kallera]

You know,Alleo, for someone not advocating genocide, if the argument that Garlemeld was somehow Hydaelyn's enemy gained traction, it would be tantamount to a literary death sentence. it would certainly be the closest thing I would imagine as a clarion call to destroy not only them, but anyone and anything related to them. Going back to the prior example, Ul'dah used this trope during the destruction of Sil'dih.

I do not want this. What possible reason would people living in the planet have to show restraint or mercy if the planet is on their side?

It just isn't my fight, I would rather we work with people than tear them apart. Being involved in destroying other nations would be a point of no return for me.

[Cilia]

Garlemald's good points:

1. Technology
-Unlike everyone else on Hydaelyn that we've met, the Garleans are not afraid to embrace technology. Everybody else spurns the idea of using technology to improve their quality of life, but not Garlemald. Case and point: when visiting the Rising Stones, Nero comments on the lack of magitek, to which Tataru retorts she has a magitek kettle that Wedge made for her. There is nothing wrong at all with embracing technological advancement, but it should be done cautiously, and never for the sole purpose of gaining more power. There are a lot of things that can go wrong if you take it too far, like Hypertuned Grynewaht, and their insistence on emulating the Allagans (who destroyed themselves after decades of decadence thanks to their technology) isn't helping.

2. Pragmatism
-Garlemald looks at the world and sees it for what it is: a harsh, unforgiving place. To this end they give everything they do their all, because nothing else will do. The world is not sugar and rainbows, and another tomorrow is not cheaply bought.

3. *Meritocracy
-Every Garlean earned their station - each and every one. Nobody is given handouts; you have to earn your keep. Where you end up in society is dependent not on your birth as it is in most of Eorzea, but by your ability, which is a very fair deal.

*This is only supposedly fair. Remember Fordola's reasoning for firing on Specula Imperatoris:

Service guarantees citizenship, but citizenship guarantees naught. It's not enough to do your part, oh no. You have to run faster, fight harder, kill more and more and more - and only then will you be equal.

It's quite clear from this and how conquered peoples are treated that, with the exception of Gaius' XIVth, the Garleans are anything but fair. You have to be better than a Garlean for them to consider you an equal - which is not equality. Aulus mal Asina further pushes the idea Garleans are superior to all other races in every regard with the exception of their inability to wield magicks. It's so bad the Garleans don't believe a talented soldier like Fordola could have obtained her station through merit - they accuse her of whoring herself out for it behind her back - because of a tactical blunder getting Lakshmi summoned. Gaius' progressiveness with Rhitahtyn and Fordola should not be taken as the Empire's general stance in regards to soldiers from provincial territories.

[Kyran-Varlsen]

Yah, the Empire does sound a bit crummy when you put it that way. If all we are going to deal with in the Capital are stuck-up elites and brainwashed citizens then why bother?

If we really do want to visit a far-out city with cool magitek wonders with a dose of isolationism then I think the city-state of Sharlaya might be a better spot for such. They were the civilization that made the Defense Mech Alexander and Idlyshire, so if we got off a boat and stepped into a city with glowing (possibly stone) skyscrapers, cars, and fashionable clothing then I probably wouldn't blink.

I also think that of the two nations, the Sharlayans are probably the faction more likely to have developed Blitzball.

So I will put myself down as not eager to go the Garlemald unless

A) There is a cool Game of Thrones-esque story around the throne we get to head.

or

B) They are the only ones with Blitzball.