Has the problem with WHM in raids fixed in SB?

[Exiled_Tonberry]

I don't know where this fear of being thrown out because of "meta" is coming from

Been playing since forever but I don't think I've ever been excluded from a group/raid due to my class.

Only time it's an issue is if obviously the other healer is the same class as me.

I'm all for enhancing our job granted, but are people really being denied flat out for being any particular job?

In 3.4, WHM was nearly excluded from raiding because of AST being better at everything they did.
The situation is the same now, but it's being looked over due to SCH currently being weaker than WHM.

[Elamys]

How did AST get shored up in the oGCD department in any way to rival WHM? We have Earthly Star, which we have to wait 10 seconds to use most effectively, and requires people to stand in it. I wish, I really wish, I had a dollar for every time the entire party moved out of it at the last second. The other heal is Lady of Crowns, which isn't that strong and requires RNG to get - first getting a card you don't care about after redrawing, and then a 50-50 chance to get either that or Lord. I definitely still think AST is far and away ahead of the other two, but WHM is still way, way better in the oGCD healing department.

[xNewbx]

SCH/AST is currently the top priority for easy/fast clears in the EX primals. Given we haven't seen Omega Savage, so there's no telling what will happen, but to note one thing. It was said that every healer will be able to heal the content. So I don't really see that changing once progression is over.

Still funny how people complain about the SCH, yet it's already being preferred over the WHM for EX primals. Let's just buff it up anyways so the WHM gets put right into the dirt. At least let the WHM be the most useful in one thing, which is most likely progression.

[Ghishlain]

In 3.4, WHM was nearly excluded from raiding because of AST being better at everything they did.
The situation is the same now, but it's being looked over due to SCH currently being weaker than WHM.

Explain how AST is better in WHM in every way shape or form.

WHM has a better MP sustainability and better oGCDs, allowing WHM to have more longevity. AST had that in the past due to both lower MP costs and a significantly better version of Shroud of Saints. Now that WHM has Thin Air and Lucid Dreaming (which is the same for both healers) and a significant number of 0MP ability heals, WHM has now taken that crown completely, as well as now having the strongest throughput out of all three healers.

[Risvertasashi]

Are you talking about this post? If so, I found it an excellent read when he first posted it. I'm a huge fan of his insight xD

Yep that's the one. There's good discussion in the comments too.

How did AST get shored up in the oGCD department in any way to rival WHM? We have Earthly Star

Earthly Star is extremely powerful and one a 60s CD. See the post Gish just linked for a bit more on that. But it lines up perfectly with, for example, Ukehi, and if you have Noct A.Helios shield up going into it, it's the only healing you need. It's similarly powerful in Lakshmi Ex.

And then there's Lady. It's 50/50, but it's another oGCD heal. ED's on a very short 40s cooldown, you can channel CU for just 1 tick for the most powerful AoE regen in the game at no cost (and that's saying something when considering it's going up against Whispering Dawn), and so on. Does WHM have more oGCDs? Sure, but let's not pretend AST is hurting for them.

SCH/AST is currently the top priority for easy/fast clears in the EX primals. Given we haven't seen Omega Savage, so there's no telling what will happen, but to note one thing. It was said that every healer will be able to heal the content. So I don't really see that changing once progression is over.

Still funny how people complain about the SCH, yet it's already being preferred over the WHM for EX primals. Let's just buff it up anyways so the WHM gets put right into the dirt. At least let the WHM be the most useful in one thing, which is most likely progression.

Hmm... yeah, perhaps the buff SCH calls are a bit premature afterall. OTOH, if a ton of people hate how SCH plays now, SE may feel pressured to make changes anyways...

WHM has a better MP sustainability and better oGCDs, allowing WHM to have more longevity. AST had that in the past due to both lower MP costs and a significantly better version of Shroud of Saints. Now that WHM has Thin Air and Lucid Dreaming (which is the same for both healers) and a significant number of 0MP ability heals, WHM has now taken that crown completely, as well as now having the strongest throughput out of all three healers.

I have to flat out disagree with you here. Don't forget AST can still extend lucid dreaming. And while lightspeed's 25% MP reduction might seem paltry compared to Thin Air, it also lasts a GCD longer and, with AST's reduced MP costs, adds up pretty nicely.

I would say the skill floor for AST MP management feels a little higher. You have to place ES in the right spot 10s in advance. Lord/Lady adds even more micromangement to the card system. You need to hold CU for about 2 seconds without accidentally even so much as right click swinging the camera. But if you are using AST's full toolkit, it's power is no joke and can get through any current content, including several raises, without using a single card draw on Ewer for MP.

[HyperSMB]

Explain how AST is better in WHM in every way shape or form.

WHM has a better MP sustainability and better oGCDs, allowing WHM to have more longevity. AST had that in the past due to both lower MP costs and a significantly better version of Shroud of Saints. Now that WHM has Thin Air and Lucid Dreaming (which is the same for both healers) and a significant number of 0MP ability heals, WHM has now taken that crown completely, as well as now having the strongest throughput out of all three healers.

Yeah, I don't get it eaither. WHM feels like a powerhouse right now. It is fun, fluid has a toolkit that makes solo healing a seriously viable notion for most things and can recover better than any other healer.

There is way too much assuming things will go perfect in this forum. When things go wrong, I would MUCH rather have a WHM than an AST as my cohealer.

[Sebazy]

What's so different about 3.0 WHM and 4.0 WHM?

Well you've answered the biggest points yourself.

We have better MP management. And we have slightly higher DPS.

The MP management can't be stressed enough, progression SCHs tended to be on a fairly tight line for MP during Creator Savage, if the WHM needed to pick up the slack somewhere they would be struggling rather quickly. Ballad meant less foes etc and generally was a raid DPS loss even if it was played during downtime. Not to mention the WHM would need to lean on the other healer more to conserve MP. By comparison, AST was entirely self sufficient unless things were really going south. In short, WHMs are the self sufficient ones now, AST are more likely to need a hand with MP although this is entirely dependant on the difficulty of the upcoming Omega Savage tier!

Is this really enough to keep us raid relevant?

That depends on the content, if we see Gordias style DPS checks again then no, AST/SCH will quickly become mandatory. If we see Creator style snooze fest healer checks, then whatever will work, but again, people will try to gravitate towards AST/SCH. But then if we see Midas style healer checks then perhaps yes, WHM will still see some favour.

In 3.0, we were practically kicked out of raids for AST buffs and SCH being too good to exclude and the fact that we had no unique utility or raid synergy.

I'm sure if you keep preaching it for long enough, some gullible fool is actually going to believe you. But please get your facts right. You're either trolling or outright lying to justify your agenda at this point. Which is it?

If you were kicked in 3.4 it was likely because you were bad, deal with it, get good, end of.

Currently, SCH is in a tight spot, so it gives WHM time to shine. But what's going to happen after they're inevitably buffed? It's going to simply roll back into the 3.0 problem of WHM being excluded because of no utility.

I'll be playing whatever suits both the content at hand and my play style. Once it comes down to logs fun I'll likely end up on AST. I've got a solid enough reputation that I'm not going to get excluded regardless of if I settle on WHM or AST so meh, makes no odds to me.

Either WHM needs to go the way of SAM, which is extremely high personal DPS/healing potency. Or it needs utility to compete with the others.

WHM already has a significant edge when it comes to raw AoE HPS and whilst it sucks for the most part, PI scales very very nicely in situations where you're throwing a lot of HPS at one or both tanks. DPS is a closer run thing, SCH have the measure of WHMs on single target stuff. WHM are the clear winners when it comes to AoE but then it's not looking like we're going to see much of that in Omega.

Some raid utility would be great sure, but you're kidding yourself if you really do believe that WHM is in a bad place right now =(

[Elamys]

ED's on a very short 40s cooldown

ED has not been changed since Heavensward, other than to remove the passive that gave it a 40 second cooldown at level...28 or whatever it was. There was no buff made to ED. There was also no buff made to Collective Unconscious, which again, requires you to have people stand in it. Plus, with the change where CU will cancel just by turning your camera/character, it's been increasingly difficult to actually get it to stay up long enough to get the HoT applied.

[Exiled_Tonberry]

but WHM is still way, way better in the oGCD healing department.

Can't quote everything because of post limit, but Earthly Star is every bit as good, maybe even better, than Assize.
It lines up perfectly with most stack mechanics and raid AOE damage so far, and in raids, you hardly ever run into the players running out of bubble problem. Most ex trials require you to stack to some extent.
The numbers of times I've seen an AST put down Earthly Star and throw up Nocturnal Helios and completely trivialize all damage...

So yes, WHM has more oGCD, but I feel like the ones AST has are more powerful.

[Elamys]

Earthly Star doesn't restore MP and Assize is instant while doing more damage. The cooldowns are the same.