Community coordinated feedback on Tenacity

[Kosmos992k]

So, more balancing to come in 4.05, but only talk of STR/VIT, ...and yet, no mention of Tenacity.

I think it's time that we as a community of tanks make it 100% crystal clear that Tenacity in it's current state is both pointless and unacceptable.

By all means balance the tanks and fix the damage formula, but regardless of all that, please SE make Tenacity meaningful, or remove it. Having another pointless attribute soaking up the point budget on our gear is just adding insult to parry's injury.

[Thela]

So, more balancing to come in 4.05, but only talk of STR/VIT, ...and yet, no mention of Tenacity.

I think it's time that we as a community of tanks make it 100% crystal clear that Tenacity in it's current state is both pointless and unacceptable.

By all means balance the tanks and fix the damage formula, but regardless of all that, please SE make Tenacity meaningful, or remove it. Having another pointless attribute soaking up the point budget on our gear is just adding insult to parry's injury.

But its not exactly useless? According to new tests you gain roughly 5% per 1000, mind you that is both 5% dmg done / 5% less dmg received. In contrast 1000 dhit will yield you around 7.5% dmg done and 0% less dmg received. Sure it could use a little buff but its certainly not as bad as most ppl seem to believe.

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

Tenacity in it's current form is alright, but I see no reason why a tank exclusive stat couldn't be pushed a tad higher. Maybe 150-175=1% negated/increased?

[Kosmos992k]

But its not exactly useless? According to new tests you gain roughly 5% per 1000, mind you that is both 5% dmg done / 5% less dmg received. In contrast 1000 dhit will yield you around 7.5% dmg done and 0% less dmg received. Sure it could use a little buff but its certainly not as bad as most ppl seem to believe.

The tests I had seen shows almost 1800 points making less than 5% difference. How are the new test results different?

Tenacity in it's current form is alright, but I see no reason why a tank exclusive stat couldn't be pushed a tad higher. Maybe 150-175=1% negated/increased?

Isn't the problem with linear scaling is that as gear becomes more powerful stats can become OP, so it needs to on a curve that eventually hits a theoretical maximum

[Cadmus]

1k tenacity = 5% dmg increase, 5% less dmg received. So let's say for simplicity you had 1,000 points to allocate, choosing another stat over it can allow you to have a 2.5% dps increase more (tho det is actually weighted higher than dhit for tanks..), but in exchange for taking 5% more damage.

So as a tank you'd willfully choose to deal 2.5% more dmg in exchange for receiving 5% more dmg? You're losing out on that trade.

Tenacity is not a horrible stat, but not one I'd prioritize. But if it happens to be on my gear I won't really care cuz it's definitely more useful than Parry.

[Deathgiver]

Gonna start off by pointing out that not one of the people who have tested the stat have done a proper test. They have either been 2 data points, or tested over a small range. Nobodies going to know the real value until someone does an incremental test from near base to near cap over large sample sizes. That being said, the fact that tenacity affects outgoing healing instead of incoming is ludicrous, and offers virtually no value as a bonus.

[DRKoftheAzure]

I did put request for tenacity to scale off of VIT yet people just read the most available thing or post their complaints that doesn't really request anything but just giving ideas unless you request it

[Ultimatecalibur]

That being said, the fact that tenacity affects outgoing healing instead of incoming is ludicrous, and offers virtually no value as a bonus.

It is actually valuable when you realize that the end benefit to self-heals is (mostly) exponential not linear.

If an attack does 1000 base to you and you have a self-heal that heals a base of 500 based on damage dealt, the self heal mitigates 50% of the damage.

If you increase damage dealt and self-healing each by 5% and decrease damage taken by 5%, the attack would deal 950 (95% of 1000) and the self heal would recover ~551.25 (105% of 105% of 500). This mitigates 58% of the damage. A 16% increase in mitigation.

It is not really visible but it is a valuable increase.

[hqdm]

The tests I had seen shows almost 1800 points making less than 5% difference. How are the new test results different?

The initial "tests" were done by some guy who had a single-digit sample size which effectively made them worthless despite good intentions.
There was a second one I saw after that, but only had a change of ~2xx TEN over a 150-sample test.

Gonna start off by pointing out that not one of the people who have tested the stat have done a proper test. They have either been 2 data points, or tested over a small range. Nobodies going to know the real value until someone does an incremental test from near base to near cap over large sample sizes. That being said, the fact that tenacity affects outgoing healing instead of incoming is ludicrous, and offers virtually no value as a bonus.

Incremental tests don't add any value for non-tiered stats.
Instead, you're making the dataset murkier because the main problem with testing reduction %s atm is having small damage ranges.
A tank taking ~1k dmg hits with 5% effective change in hp from TEN means ~50 dmg difference.
Splitting the tenacity delta to do incremental tests means a higher fluctuation / error margin because now you're measuring 200-300 TEN gaps where the difference will only be 15-20 damage and any 1 pt of dmg will have a greater %value.

To get a more accurate result than the recent test you'd need to find a mob that did more damage per swing, or wait until 4.x when everyone's swimming in higher ilvl raid gear.
The problem with that is that it's annoying af to test vs high damage mobs because you can't afk or you need an actual player healing you (outdmgs the bird) and healing aggro issues.
Desummoning the bird every 5min drops the aggro, but getting a player to rezone every 5min for a 7-8hour test is just not happening.

What constitutes a large sample size for you?
The last one was done with ~5k samples per point.
There was a fluctuation of about ~0.1% between 3k and 5k samples for some of the datapoints, but most reported back at the same rate.
The point of a larger sample size is to make sure any outliers don't affect the overall data - once it's settled, which it did by 5k, there's not much point in going higher.

[Duelle]

So, more balancing to come in 4.05, but only talk of STR/VIT, ...and yet, no mention of Tenacity.

I think it's time that we as a community of tanks make it 100% crystal clear that Tenacity in it's current state is both pointless and unacceptable.

By all means balance the tanks and fix the damage formula, but regardless of all that, please SE make Tenacity meaningful, or remove it. Having another pointless attribute soaking up the point budget on our gear is just adding insult to parry's injury.

On the one hand, I agree with you. On the other, I also think the devs have to be careful to not make Tenacity this thing that becomes the ultimate tank stat (the fact that it affects both damage dealt and damage taken is what makes this a bit risky). A small buff would probably work, but anything more than that and you'd have tanks stacking it like crazy.

I sometimes wish tanks here had something like Armored to the Teeth, which basically gave tanks bonus attack rating based on armor value. We already have an edge over the other jobs because tank gear gives superior defense, so it's not like it'd be impossible.