Tanks that think they are DPS, just stop...

[Spartan926]

I'm in agreement with the main point of this thread. There's no reason to try to out DPS anyone as a tank. If you're MT your first job is to be #1 on the aggro bar, if you're OT your first job should be to be #2 on the aggro bar in case something happens, your second job is to watch for and pick up ads as necessary. Everything other than that is secondary.

[Fyce]

I'm in agreement with the main point of this thread. There's no reason to try to out DPS anyone as a tank. If you're MT your first job is to be #1 on the aggro bar, if you're OT your first job should be to be #2 on the aggro bar in case something happens, your second job is to watch for and pick up ads as necessary. Everything other than that is secondary.

You still have the same responsability as any party member: optimizing your skill usage.
Using Rage of Halone when you already have a clear enmity lead instead of Goring Blade/Royal Authority isn't optimal. It's a failure. Do it too often and people will be in their right to call you on that, and that you're doing a bad job, maybe not as a tank per se, but as a party member.

The tank #1 priority is the same as everyone else: successfully finishing the duty while trying to reduce the chances of failure as much as possible.
By not trying to optimize your DPS as a Tank (or healer, or DPS job), you are reducing the chances of success. Which means that you don't fulfill your #1 priority as a party member.

So, in short, trying to optimize your DPS output as a Tank is definitly in your top priorities. It's not "optional" (as some princess healers like to say).

--

That being said, there's a difference in striving for optimization, and asking the game developers to flat out give more attack power to tanks. The former is expected, the latter is silly*.


(*)Excluding balance discussions, obviously.

[Ameela]

That being said, there's a difference in striving for optimization, and asking the game developers to flat out give more attack power to tanks. The former is expected, the latter is silly*.

The biggest problem with that is that with the changes to tank damage and the way accessories work we'll eventually reach a point where tank damage is so low when compared to DPS that the run won't be any shorter even if the tank tries to optimise DPS, if you can't contribute in a meaningful way, why try to contribute at all? Might as well just sit in tank stance and do your 1-2-3 combo like a good boy.

[Fyce]

The biggest problem with that is that with the changes to tank damage and the way accessories work we'll eventually reach a point where tank damage is so low when compared to DPS that the run won't be any shorter even if the tank tries to optimise DPS, if you can't contribute in a meaningful way, why try to contribute at all? Might as well just sit in tank stance and do your 1-2-3 combo like a good boy.

I'm waiting to see what they are planning for 4.05 before having an opinion on that.
It's clear that there's a gap in Attack Power increase which will grow between DPS and Tanks. But it's quite hard to predict at the moment how things will evolve precisely, and how much % group DPS participation will tank lose over time.

My feeling is that even if SE does nothing, as long as the % participation from tanks remains around 12-15%, it'll be good enough. It's currently near 20% (depends on the percentile and the team composition but you get the idea).
Whatever the case, as long as there will be DPS checks, tanks should continue pushing. In progression and shortly after at least.

[Ultimatecalibur]

The biggest problem with that is that with the changes to tank damage and the way accessories work we'll eventually reach a point where tank damage is so low when compared to DPS that the run won't be any shorter even if the tank tries to optimise DPS, if you can't contribute in a meaningful way, why try to contribute at all? Might as well just sit in tank stance and do your 1-2-3 combo like a good boy.

That is a seriously bad slippery slope argument.

You are presupposing that the only way to generate enough enmity to hold hate against dps in 4.5 if things remain unchanged is to be in tank stance spamming RoH/Power Slash/Butcher's Block combos.

A more likely scenario is that a tank in tank stance doing a proper optimized dps rotation will be able to generate enough enmity to hold hate.

[NosValk]

Its alright we've got a bright future ahead of us, we'll be able to make all them non-tanks happy.

[AdamZ]

A more likely scenario is that a tank in tank stance doing a proper optimized dps rotation will be able to generate enough enmity to hold hate.

Now that is some bad tank design right there. Given how 1 (WAR) is required to be in dps stance to do anything close to a optimized rotation, and a second (DRK) also does not enjoy the kit it loses in grit.

See you are all for the Pally/Pally meta.

[SyzzleSpark]

From the most basic and fundamental game design standpoint, an objective analysis of this game's trinity system STRONGLY implies that all jobs are actually at their core framework, damage dealers. The only differences between DPS, healers, and tanks is where the added responsibility lies:

DPS:
-deal damage with a complicated rotation
-master the complex rotation to maximize damage

Healers
-deal damage with a simple rotation
-keep everyone alive

Tanks
-deal damage with a simple rotation
-hold aggro and mitigate damage

DPS are pure damage dealers that have a more complex rotation as an added role mechanic.
Healers are hybrid damage dealers that have a simpler rotation to accomodate their healing duties.
Tanks are hybrid damage dealers that have a simpler rotation to accomodate their tanking duties.

I'm in agreement with the main point of this thread. There's no reason to try to out DPS anyone as a tank. If you're MT your first job is to be #1 on the aggro bar, if you're OT your first job should be to be #2 on the aggro bar in case something happens, your second job is to watch for and pick up ads as necessary. Everything other than that is secondary.

Nobody is aiming to out-DPS DPS jobs. We're aiming to maximize our potential damage, with is around 1/2 to 2/3rds of what DPS are capable of, and generally it has always been balanced at about that ratio, so tanks are accustomed to it and we don't want it to go any lower than that. Not sure what about that concept is hard to empathize with.

[Shadotterdan]

Here's my thoughts on this. Yeah, when I'm maintank I stay in tank stance, but I also balance which combo I use based on whether I need a huge amount of enmity, am good on enmity, or my DoT combo needs refreshing. Basically I feel that if you're just spamming one combo, I'd say learn your job better, but on the other hand, DPS is your third priority, I don't feel you should be kitting yourself out for damage and stance swapping to stay just on the edge of things. Also, I say third priority because in addition to keeping hate, your second job is making sure the hits you take require less healing to take care of through cooldown management, aoe dodging and at least in my case that's the main reason I stay in tank stance when I MT.

That said though when I'm OT I consider myself a gimp DPS and fight accordingly until something comes up where the second tank is needed.

[TankEngine]

Castrate the tank community and enforce poor play/an outdated playstyle/an unrewarding design that only appeals to an even minor minority in the already small tank population.
...

This.

It\\'s not enough to be all moralistic about tanking and expect everyone to just accept a dull, unrewarding play style. There\\'s a shortage of tanks, it needs to be solved by making tanking fun.

You can do that by introducing new mechanics for tanks that affect the game (say, utility) or by letting good tanks do good DPS.

The trouble is that, on the one hand, SE want to lower the skill floor of tanking so that casual players aren\\'t destroyed in dungeons, but they\\'ve also reduced the skill ceiling by giving us very little to focus on other than holding hate. They just need to find a way to give good tanks ways to speed up, or make more interesting, fights in skillful ways.