Tanks that think they are DPS, just stop...

[DacienSanderon]

I don't see why, once you've learned the content, that you wouldn't want to maximize DPS as a tank. Priority 1 - hold aggro. Priority 2 - mitigate when needed. Priority 3 - DPS. Holding aggro is ingrained in the tanking jobs from the first dungeon. Mitigation comes with learning content. Once you know the content, you're selling yourself short to not try maximizing DPS.

The problem is that more often than not, priority 3 is done at the expense of step 2. A reduction in mitigation at best reduces healer dps and at worst risks death and a possible party wipe. It is common practice on these forums to ignore those effects, especially loss of healer dps.

[YitharV2]

People just need to realize that you can't compare this game to other games. Different game different system. Why do people keep on arguing how TERA works better etc when this game isn't anywhere near TERA? Better have FFXIV be TERA2, right? In this game, tanks and healers are secondary DPS. Don't get stuck to your 'fantasy' tank or healer guidelines, because not everything is a yes or no.

Why can't I do that? They're both MMOs. Inb4 this is FF before a MMO. I never said TERA was perfect. If it was perfect, I wouldn't have quit in the first place. All my arguments have been solely on how tanking functioned in TERA. And tanks there are very close in DPS to actual DPS (see here; Rxkt is the tank), so... tanks are sort of DPS there too, especially with Brawler tanks that hold aggro solely through damage (no aggro modifiers or combos at all).

My point in comparison is that there can be a lot more depth to both mitigation and DPS when it comes to tanking.
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...28#post4291828

Or you know, I can just spam this image and complain about how tanking is boring in this game, because that's real constructive, right?

My 'fantasy' is to have fun tanking again like I used to. When you imply that tanks aren't secondary DPS in another MMO without researching, that just makes you look really uninformed. What this tells me is that despite playing TERA you don't actually know how tanks work in TERA.

[Sarcatica]

The problem is that more often than not, priority 3 is done at the expense of step 2. A reduction in mitigation at best reduces healer dps and at worst risks death and a possible party wipe. It is common practice on these forums to ignore those effects, especially loss of healer dps.

More often is a very small sample size on the high end and way more on the lower end. This is why the context needs to be clear such as who is tanking? How much DPS is he/she able to do? Is it beneficial for healers to DPS more at the expense of tanks? Generally tanks at their peak normally do more than healers in terms of DPS, it's nonsensical to trade our dps for healers dps because of the "dps cap". Most players are not competent enough of doing their best dps, which is why you are probably seeing the ups and downs. You can have tanks doing 400-600dps in the current 2 EXs, and on the other end can have tanks doing 2.6kdps each. It's really the skill of the players affecting the whole result. This is also why Yoship actively avoids having an ingame parses because it exposes everyone's skill level. Only when you install ACT in your computer that you can see the lower limits and upper limits and realize more.

[Temjiu]

to a certain degree I agree with the OP. As a tank, our first and foremost job is to hold threat. secondary job is to beef ourselves up to be able to take more damage. third job is any party support we may/may not have. LAST in 4th is additional damage. It's last, not first. If you can't hold threat, you have no job griping or stacking damage bonuses.

HOWEVER...Threat as a mechanic is still dependent on DPS (regardless of our threat multiplier). So to a certain point, DPS can help us. After that variable threshold is met, It's non-essential, and IMO prohibitive UNLESS all the other priorities are already maxed or met with stats and rotations. So while I don't see added damage as an issue with tanks, It's silly to try and use it as an excuse to stack damage stats or lose threat because you want to pump out more damage.

And no...they didn't give us DPS skills to communicate that we needed to DPS more in a tank role...the sheer fact that we have skills that specifically have threat multipliers built into them should show this. you have skills to tank with, and you have skills to solo with (the only exception being that of an off-tank role, when DPS skills are simply logical to use). That being said, there have been plenty of roulette runs and Primal battles where after a few rotations of my threat skills, I switch over to my DPS skills and have no issues holding threat. But then again, I'm one of those tanks that tends to stick in tank stance for most of my fights...Cause I spend 80% of my time in roulettes where most DPS don't even realize they have threat reduction skills.

overgearing a dungeon or raid that you have on farm is a different issue, but it's also a different environment. I think this is where most people picked up the bad habits we see today. a year of overgearing farm content leads one to be a bit lazy when it comes to fulfilling your job role in times where it matters.

EDIT: Upon personal reflection, I think that in a general sense, one of the reasons many tanks like to discuss and tweak damage numbers is that compared to threat production, and having X effective health, there isn't much to tweak on your character. Damage is a variable that is interesting and consistently (infinitely) tweakable and will always have benefits no matter how much you have. Threat simply isn't interesting outside of having "enough". same with health. to summarize, it's simply gives us something to work towards. Still not an excuse to argue a need for "more" DPS from a design perspective, and not an excuse to be a bad tank. But I don't see why a tank shouldn't be able to improve their numbers in a dynamic fashion just because we have the job of pissing the boss off the most.

[Sarcatica]

Why can't I do that? They're both MMOs. Inb4 this is FF before a MMO. I never said TERA was perfect. If it was perfect, I wouldn't have quit in the first place. All my arguments have been solely on how tanking functioned in TERA. And tanks there are very close in DPS to actual DPS (see here; Rxkt is the tank), so... tanks are sort of DPS there too, especially with Brawler tanks that hold aggro solely through damage (no aggro modifiers or combos at all).

My point in comparison is that there can be a lot more depth to both mitigation and DPS when it comes to tanking.

They are both MMOs but of the different nature. Linking moongourd doesn't mean a thing (DPS alone doesn't give you the data you need to comprehend the full story) because you always need to know the full context of the game. This is where FFLogs comes in useful for breaking down fights. Tanking in both games are similar but each game requires different system to support the gameplay. Like what's mentioned before, the games need to undergo a huge change to accommodate such system.

[Sarcatica]

HOWEVER...Threat as a mechanic is still dependent on DPS (regardless of our threat multiplier). So to a certain point, DPS can help us. After that variable threshold is met, It's non-essential, and IMO prohibitive UNLESS all the other priorities are already maxed or met with stats and rotations. So while I don't see added damage as an issue with tanks, It's silly to try and use it as an excuse to stack damage stats or lose threat because you want to pump out more damage.

And no...they didn't give us DPS skills to communicate that we needed to DPS more in a tank role...the sheer fact that we have skills that specifically have threat multipliers built into them should show this. you have skills to tank with, and you have skills to solo with (the only exception being that of an off-tank role, when DPS skills are simply logical to use). That being said, there have been plenty of roulette runs and Primal battles where after a few rotations of my threat skills, I switch over to my DPS skills and have no issues holding threat. But then again, I'm one of those tanks that tends to stick in tank stance for most of my fights...Cause I spend 80% of my time in roulettes where most DPS don't even realize they have threat reduction skills.

Then explain why there are DPS checks in the game. The designs themselves encourage us to DPS so as to avoid getting enrages, literally almost every hard fight has one at least. The design is 100% intended if it has been staying for more than 2 expansions.

If you have to stay in tank stance for 80% of the time for enmity even in single boss fights, you need to look at what you are doing.

[MyaValentine]

Then explain why there are DPS checks in the game.

emmm.... to be literally what their name implies? dps checks? to check if dps are doing their optimal damage? same reason why we have enrage? if enrage didn't exist you could take a full party of tanks to every fight and cheese the hell out of them but because a dps check need to be meet we have to bring dps to the team very clear and simple, people keep having the stigma of gordian but neither coil or the last alexander had severe dps checks were tanks and healers had to give their last ounce of dps possible, for 99% of the content in the game dps checks can easily be done by a full group of competent dps and if those dps aren't as good tanks and healers add the extra support. idk whats so hard to understand about this.

lakshmi and suzano certainly don't need tank added dps and neither does any of the omega normal mode, we will see if the developers learn from their mistake and doesn't repeat gordias again with savage deltascape. but highly doubt max healer and tank dps will be required.

[Sarcatica]

people keep having the stigma of gordian but neither coil or the last alexander had severe dps checks were tanks and healers had to give their last ounce of dps possible, for 99% of the content in the game dps checks can easily be done by a full group of competent dps and if those dps aren't as good tanks and healers add the extra support. idk whats so hard to understand about this.

Hard for most people to understand. You still need to do sufficient dps as tanks and healers to increase the rate of clearing. This especially is important for early prog team where week 1-2 don't give you more gear options to reliably clear 3rd and 4th floor. If you see the initial clears of 3rd and 4th floor, tanks have been doing more damage to bypass the enrage. And it WILL be the same in Omega because the DPS checks are normally tuned at higher ilvl.

[Heatkrieg]

The only mistake in Gordias wasn't that it had a DPS check that required tanks and healers to put out as much damage as they had to clear content; it was that the content was far too difficult to be the first raid tier and gear gating was an issue, wherein content can't be cleared without getting upgraded gear from the previous floors regardless of your skill. If anything, Gordias needs to make a comeback in savage because, as the name implies, the content is meant to be harder and less accessible to the public than normal or Susano and Lakshmi are (which by the way are AWFUL examples of end game content because of how literally brain dead they are). Look, there's a very simple explanation for this, the best mitigation of a mechanic is one that you could skip all together. A11S and A12S are good examples of this, with high enough group DPS, you'll skip raid wide damage in A11S and a tank buster or two + the communion puddle mechanic on A12S.

Fall behind because your tank wants to stay in tank stance and use their aggro combo ad infinitum, you'll get hit by those mechanics putting more stress on your healers and your DPS who dealing with said mechanics.

[Sarcatica]

The only mistake in Gordias wasn't that it had a DPS check that required tanks and healers to put out as much damage as they had to clear content; it was that the content was far too difficult to be the first raid tier and gear gating was an issue, wherein content can't be cleared without getting upgraded gear from the previous floors regardless of your skill. If anything, Gordias needs to make a comeback in savage because, as the name implies, the content is meant to be harder and less accessible to the public than normal or Susano and Lakshmi are (which by the way are AWFUL examples of end game content because of how literally brain dead they are). Look, there's a very simple explanation for this, the best mitigation of a mechanic is one that you could skip all together. A11S and A12S are good examples of this, with high enough group DPS, you'll skip raid wide damage in A11S and a tank buster or two + the communion puddle mechanic on A12S.

Fall behind because your tank wants to stay in tank stance and use their aggro combo ad infinitum, you'll get hit by those mechanics putting more stress on your healers and your DPS who dealing with said mechanics.

Agreed. Skipping phases also makes it easier to "blow" tanks' CDs which is in favour of clearing the said turns faster and smoothly.