Tanks that think they are DPS, just stop...

[phishstix]

This thread has been interesting to read. This seems to be one of the few traditional MMOS (and not an AMMORPG like TERA or BnS) that has this debate recently. WoWs Warrior's Defensive stance works in much the same way as Grit although the damage penalty is much lower. But I think maybe because tanks over there are more worried about their mitigation, and damage is secondary. The contrast is striking.

I seriously hope you guys come to a conclusion, but either way SE has the final say on tanking changes and they seem determined to stamp out the unintentional meta. It could be worse. They could be increase mob damage (which was done indirectly because mobs can direct hit you as well as crit you now) and boss auto-attack damage to the point where leaving your tank stance is a 100% death sentence for the most part. All I know is that whatever happens the tanks we lost this expansion probably won't come back unless a reversal happens or they have much better changes coming.

[Soraki-Muppe]

either way SE has the final say on tanking changes and they seem determined to stamp out the unintentional meta.

On one hand they are doing that, but then they continue designing fights along the same line that created said meta. If SE really want to get rid of that meta then they have to do so by designing fights where this meta is not in any way optional and not by just messing around with the jobs and expect it to be fixed.
If a high amount of hp and a ton of mitigation was most optimal then the meta would change in that direction by itself, I do personally think that way of changing a meta is better then SE telling us that tanks need to be tanky without designing any fights around tanks needing to be tanky... heck they even failed on most fights to insert a reason for two tanks.

[Shurrikhan]

Tanks are DPS. DPS are DPS. Healers are DPS. However direct or indirect they may contribute to clear time, as long as the encounter is ended by depleting enemy HP, all are DPS.

Oftentimes the indirect contribution will outweigh direct. There would be no tanks or healers otherwise. But this is capped. Direct contribution, instead, is never capped, apart from where it would, in the space of a single GCD, cause overkill damage. So why, upon hitting cap, would you bash your head fruitlessly against it instead of actually continuing to contribute?

What does not contribute to clearing a fight should not be taken to the fight. Within a margin of acceptance based on your more approximate community, what does not best contribute to clearing a fight should not be taken to the fight, either.

[YitharV2]

-snip-

But it is a MMO? Don't get me wrong. I love the Final Fantasy series. And I respect that it's part of the FF franchise, but this is a MMO, whether you like or not. Note that Summoner and Red Mage were changed to fit the fact that FFXIV is a MMO.

My personal opinion is that tanks can be more than just DPS with simplified rotations. I'm not against tank DPS. I just think there can be more depth to both tank DPS and mitigation. I've only played 2 MMOs previously, but maybe I am a "MMO Chaser", I don't know.

I'm reminded of something from the Balance



Image from the picture. Basically someone wanting a story mode for Alexander Savage.

[Falar]

But it is a MMO? Don't get me wrong. I love the Final Fantasy series. And I respect that it's part of the FF franchise, but this is a MMO, whether you like or not. Note that Summoner and Red Mage were changed to fit the fact that FFXIV is a MMO.

My personal opinion is that tanks can be more than just DPS with simplified rotations. I'm not against tank DPS. I just think there can be more depth to both tank DPS and mitigation. I've only played 2 MMOs previously, but maybe I am a "MMO Chaser", I don't know.

I'm reminded of something from the Balance



Image from the picture. Basically someone wanting a story mode for Alexander Savage.

LUL, there is a story mode, its called normal.

When tanks were doing 70-80% of a DPS role the sky was not falling. I don't see any logical reason for it to have to be reduced to 50%. Put STR on our accessories, fix WAR and DRK, and call it a day.

[TaranTatsuuchi]

There is no Vit tank meta. Meta means most efficient tactics available and being vit tank is clearly not the most efficient way(At least currently).

...
SE being confused at what they do since all their design decisions thus far are contradicting themselves).
...

...
but either way SE has the final say on tanking changes and they seem determined to stamp out the unintentional meta.
....

On one hand they are doing that, but then they continue designing fights along the same line that created said meta. If SE really want to get rid of that meta then they have to do so by designing fights where this meta is not in any way optional and not by just messing around with the jobs and expect it to be fixed.
If a high amount of hp and a ton of mitigation was most optimal then the meta would change in that direction by itself, I do personally think that way of changing a meta is better then SE telling us that tanks need to be tanky without designing any fights around tanks needing to be tanky... heck they even failed on most fights to insert a reason for two tanks.

SE may want the game to be played one way...

But, they have to design the content to incentivise that playstyle.
Not just forcing the playstyle on the playerbase.


The Meta is organically created based on the mechanics and content design of the game.
If they want to change the Meta, they need to change their design.

[Shurrikhan]

My personal opinion is that tanks can be more than just DPS with simplified rotations. I'm not against tank DPS. I just think there can be more depth to both tank DPS and mitigation.

If people could make and maintain this as the goal of a given thread, maybe these arguments could finally stop beating around the bush and think-tank something useful. It seems like 90% of any given thread is either the promotion of a preference or beating common sense into those who believe that their preference and the actual game align when they do not. Rarely do they try to take the big picture and try to align the actual game with something that better serves a larger portion while alienating little to none of the population. Admittedly, though, that's really tough to do.

I would LOVE to see mitigation be more engaging. At that point it becomes a nuanced tradeoff even in rotational skills, rather just an arsenal of bonus CDs, DPS could end up a whole lot more engaging, too. That may be beyond the current team though, or at least its assumed value of its development time necessary.

[YitharV2]

If people could make and maintain this as the goal of a given thread, maybe these arguments could finally stop beating around the bush and think-tank something useful. It seems like 90% of any given thread is either the promotion of a preference or beating common sense into those who believe that their preference and the actual game align when they do not. Rarely do they try to take the big picture and try to align the actual game with something that better serves a larger portion while alienating little to none of the population. Admittedly, though, that's really tough to do.

I would LOVE to see mitigation be more engaging. At that point it becomes a nuanced tradeoff even in rotational skills, rather just an arsenal of bonus CDs, DPS could end up a whole lot more engaging, too. That may be beyond the current team though, or at least its assumed value of its development time necessary.

Yeah. I do think it is tough to do though.

I agree. I would love mitigation to be more engaging. I also feel it there's a good chance it would make DPS more engaging as well. The problem I feel is two-fold. One, I don't think it aligns with SE's goals of keeping tanking and healing easy for new players because I see newer tanks having trouble with passive mitigation (although it might just be they think they need to save their cooldowns). Two, it would require a huge rework of how bosses work and the tanking jobs themselves.

[Reokotsae]

How I see tanks in ff14 is that the original purpose of dps stance was more for singular questing and existing in the overworld and not taking an hour to kill a mob. Naturally the community has since latched unto off-role dps as a required function of the game. And i don't blame them one bit really, there isn't anything to do after threat is maintained and a tank buster is mitigated.

The direction I hope square goes is to leave dps stances as an overworld mechanic and to add more engagement and effectiveness in the form of interesting/and or utility combos. Thinking things like, a combo finisher that would make the next 5 instances of damage on a boss not your own deal additional potency. Actively spending gauge to implement a more powerful armorbreak, or grant party members buffs. Things to do that net more group damage or survival while being intuitive with traditional tanking.