Tanks that think they are DPS, just stop...

[HeroIgnis]

I think depsite of you being a healer, a tank or a dps, the any class should be having fun while playing that class.... i play healer because i like multi-tasking, dpsing while keeping people alive, i also play DPS when i dont want to babysit people, because i like to maximise my dmg.... Tanks play tanks because they like to be in the front line and mitigate damage but also DPSing, if the tanks themselves are nto having fun because of their dmg being too low, do you think the right solution is just go and yell at them "GET OVER IT AND KEEP TANKING SO I CAN KEEP DOING MY DPS STUFF! " well, longer Ques for you then.

Well said sir, imagine how boring it would be to just spamming flash, overpower, or unleash all the time and using defensive cooldown here and there. Imagine just spamming cures, no buffs, no debuffs, no dots. Imagine not having defensive cooldown or self healing. If people keep making this ridiculous argument and the dev implement it, this game is gonna get real boring real fast.

[KingFrost]

So I'm seeing a lot of people talking about Vit begrudgingly, but wouldn't the existence of Tenacity increase the value of Vit, if even a little? It's not as if Vit was useless before, it just had a ceiling of use, but if Tenacity continues to increase on gear, that bigger HP will go a longer way, increasing eHP as well as regular HP.

The solution seems simple (And honestly what I thought was already done), just increase the AP weight on Tenacity. Perhaps near equal to Str.

[Lyth]

It's not that people dislike Vitality. From 3.2 until SB, tanks really liked it. The system worked precisely because gear improved both your HP and the effectiveness of your actions.

The problem that tanks have with Vitality under the present system is that the effectiveness of your actions does not scale with better right side gear. Vitality is very important, up until a point, but tanks shouldn't have to trade it off stats that have a bigger impact on performance in order to have more Vitality.

It's the same issue with Parry pre-SB. The act of parrying something is good. Tanks like it when it happens. But Parry showed up on tank gear at the cost of other stats which had a bigger impact on tank performance, like Crit, Det, and Skill Speed. You never saw the same complaints about Block, because Block was a shield property that did not come at the cost of other stats. As a result, stats like Parry, and in some cases, Accuracy, ended up being "dead stats" on gear that didn't contribute to your performance. The end result was that some gear pieces 10-20 ilvls lower were more powerful than their higher ilvl counterparts with more Parry and Accuracy, purely due to secondary stat weights.

The Vitality change revisits all of this, but worse. Your right side Vitality has no stat weight to it. In fact, in spite of being a secondary stat (and a poorly scaling one at that), Tenacity is more useful than Vitality, because it influences both damage and passive damage reduction, the latter of which has a much bigger impact on survival than raw HP. The problem with Tenacity is that it doesn't scale well, probably because you don't want players having large mitigation differences based on how they pick out and meld their gear.

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

because you don't want players having large mitigation differences based on how they pick out and meld their gear.

Why not? A tank that melds a tank stat should logically be much more tanky than someone that chooses to use STR, at the expense of taking, for example, 25-30% more damage on average that CD's alone shouldn't be able to accommodate.

[Lyth]

Why not? A tank that melds a tank stat should logically be much more tanky than someone that chooses to use STR, at the expense of taking, for example, 25-30% more damage on average that CD's alone shouldn't be able to accommodate.

Percent damage reduction can easily get out of hand. In this game, the devs have traditionally kept it in check by linking DEF/MDEF to gear tiers, so that the amount of damage that tanks receive is fairly uniform.

You can have a lot of variation in secondary stats. You have to account for tanks in entry level gear with much lower Tenacity, and tanks in higher level gear with potentially much higher tenacity. If it scaled too briskly, you could have a fairly significant difference in the damage taken, which could make encounter design for different skill and gear levels much more challenging. Tenacity could be much more powerful if it was a primary stat, as primary stats are generally gained at fixed amounts with each tier of gear, and you won't have two tanks with different amounts.

Make no mistake, %DR stats in MMOs are very powerful, and devs are usually fairly cautious with them. For all of our interest in doing solid dps, if stacking %DR gave us big enough returns, we'd prioritise it in a heartbeat. This is the sort of thing that can trivialise tanking in encounters.

[Kacho_Nacho]

This isn't a black and white situation. Every party is different. Every encounter is different.

One thing I learned back when I was tanking in WoW is that there is a time to turtle and a time to contribute to the damage. So the rule of thumb was to build up enough health and mitigation to where you felt comfortable then added equipment to increase your damage.

After that, you worked with your party to ensure your survival and enmity. Your party was mindful of their hate and you were aware of when you could throw in a few damage hits. In short, it was a team effort.

[ManuelBravo]

This isn't a black and white situation. Every party is different. Every encounter is different.

One thing I learned back when I was tanking in WoW is that there is a time to turtle and a time to contribute to the damage.

Your right, however the problem is people refuse to work as a team, ( for the most cases even when mobs are marked, didn't know counting was a huge problem. ) or they don't know how to switch target if enmity is being reached on current target. Not to insult anyone common sense but if you see a tank struggling, maybe try attacking one target all together and not split it, not everyone can tank. Also for any tanks out there ID your struggling USE MARKERS AND ASK FOR CO-OPERATION it's not brain surgery and no one is a mind reader. ASK for help if your having a hard time. Prep before hand Max potion or ether come in handy sometimes and are pretty easy to get.

[ADVSS]

Your right, however the problem is people refuse to work as a team, ( for the most cases even when mobs are marked, didn't know counting was a huge problem. ) or they don't know how to switch target if enmity is being reached on current target. Not to insult anyone common sense but if you see a tank struggling, maybe try attacking one target all together and not split it. NOT everyone can tank. Also for any tanks out there USE MARKERS AND ASK FOR CO-OPERATION it's not brain surgery and no one is a mind reader.

Most DPS that never touched a tank a day in their life, wouldnt know what the enmity bars are. They probably think its a dps meter, tbh. Most healers that dont touch tanks probably didnt know throwing medica 2 on the party right as the tank was nearing the group of mobs was why they all started chasing that healer as well. Until they were told.

[ManuelBravo]

Most DPS that never touched a tank a day in their life, wouldnt know what the enmity bars are. They probably think its a dps meter, tbh. Most healers that dont touch tanks probably didnt know throwing medica 2 on the party right as the tank was nearing the group of mobs was why they all started chasing that healer as well.

Sounds about right, hence it's Tank's job to minimum communicate or teach them on why it's making things complicated., that or adjust to the situation if they have enough experience to do so. ( not many ). Personally if anyone is tanking and some one ask for help I will gladly help them or give them tips if they ask for it. IF they don't complain I call it out and give them a tip (normally if we keep wiping ). Now if people are really being unreasonable I vote kick after several warnings ( if I'm tanking ) or refuse to tank until person is replaced. Last resort vote kick me rather than me taking a penalty.

[ADVSS]

Sounds about right, hence it's Tank's job to minimum communicate or teach them on why it's making things complicated., that or adjust to the situation if they have enough experience to do so. ( not many ). Personally if anyone is tanking and some one ask for help I will gladly help them or give them tips if they ask for it. IF they don't complain I call it out and give them a tip (normally if we keep wiping ). Now if people are really being unreasonable I vote kick after several warnings ( if I'm tanking ) or refuse to tank until person is replaced. Last resort vote kick me rather than me taking a penalty.

Sounds about right. Those examples sort of applied to me when i first was learning the game, as tank, but then when i levelled healer next then dps next i had a broader understanding of all of these things to be mindful about, like if i take hate from the tank i always walk up to them, for instance.