Remove Frontline experiece NOW - Group majority of bots

[Joe777]

Make it so xp gain when your alliance loses is on par with Leves and that should solve the problem.

[Lufir]

EXP needs to be removed completely. It doesn't matter how much they nerf the EXP in Frontlines, bots are still gonna bot because it is free, guaranteed EXP. Not only are botters ruining the PvP experience, they are leveling all jobs while not even "playing". Other worthwhile sources of EXP at least needs you to be actively present. I've only seen one botter in a dungeon and it was quickly noticeable and we kicked him. You can't kick them in Frontlines when they are the majority. Reporting does nothing.

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

SE doesn't share your opinion since they just raised the XP amount instead of removing it per the 4.1 patch notes. That thread you linked to is completely pointless. You have too small a polling size to accurately represent the amount of people that play the game. 100 people from the pvp sub forum who already likely enjoy pvp and would pvp regardless of what SE does or doesn't do won't accurately reflect the opinion of the millions who play. Sorry, but I trust SE decision over some rando on the forums. PvP has bigger problems right now then XP. It's down right boring and the only reason I bother with it is because Tomestones are easy to cap spamming matches & Leveling a DPS from 60 to 70 is faster in PvP when you're out of roulettes and other forms of XP since other queues take 30+ minutes to enter vs the couple of minutes to match into a PvP match.

Wow, where do I begin with this one?

First, they increased PvP XP. Read it again carefully.
Second, the thread is hardly pointless as the question was generally asked, and more people - even if a small sampling answered and said they would. Logic would then dictate that there ARE people who would PvP because they actually want to PvP and not for the XP. If that's what you use it for, that's fine, but don't complain about lengthy queues to me. Please don't. I'd waited much longer than 30 minutes for both dungeons AND PvP, and that was when PvP didn't give XP at all. Also don't try to play the numbers game. "Millions" of people don't even play this game. Should they dictate what should and shouldn't be part of it?
And as far as the "I trust SE's decision" bit, when it comes to PvP. . . whew, man. You really need to go read those PvP forums some time. Where PvP is concerned, I couldn't say "I trust SE's decision" with a gun to my head.

This is a stupid argument. There are all sorts of people. There are those that want to reach the goal and don't give a damn about the road towards it, but there are also the ones that want to make most of it and enrich their end.

I don't care about competition and whenever I did PvP, I did it for rewards (though honestly, I did it only before 4.0, as since then I just have no need for what PvP rewards). However, it's a party-based content and I despise holding others back when I can help it. So I did give it a fair try, trying to win till the end. The only difference is that even if I was part of the losing team, I didn't beat myself over it.

On a different side of the spectrum, there are the psychotically competitive players that want to show that "they are the best" to the point they are just plain toxic...ironically, often going out on their own and messing up the teamwork by trying to show off how "best" they are. And even with few PvP runs I did, I still managed to come across those competitive sorts that order others around, then give up halfway with a stupid excuse of "since we can't win anymore, what's the point of doing it?! I'm here only to win.". And you know what?! The most prominent time that happened, our team went from a third-place by far, to nearly winning. And we WERE held back by the one with the most bark and "competitive spirit".

The problem is entirely with the mentality of people not caring about others, wanting only the best for themselves. This mentality is FREQUENT in competitive players! There is no problem in non-competitive players that will stop trying if they see little chance of winning, even if they tried their best. That's one way how "change" happens. The weak players leave, stop feeding the strong, the strong lose their "meal", they thin out, the weak ones come back and the strong ones eventually catch on. This is natural and overall healthy, as (so long as there is an odd number of factions) it gives all sides some chances to win, thus enticing them to try.

Let me give this one my full attention.

First, let's not paint with broad strokes. It is entirely possible to be both competitive and compassionate. I know quite a number of PvPers in this game that are exactly that. Putting that aside, let me not mince words here: there is nothing wrong with being non-competitve. There is EVERYTHING wrong with being non-competitive in a competitive environment. You don't have to care, but you do have to try.

We already have a big enough problem with players shying away from challenge even in PvE. That's just not an option in PvP. Gonna lose? Take your lumps. But do it on your feet. Rolling over only guarantees you both lose, and learn nothing. Rolling over means you deserve nothing. Letting a team win just so you can end the match quickly and perhaps try again is pathetic, and if that sounds bad, that's because it IS. No one has to be the best, no one who currently is the "best" is just naturally that way. But I can guarantee the "best" players never let someone win just so they can maybe get a better chance. Do that, and you'll always be "letting" people win while looking for that guaranteed chance. Nothing is guaranteed except failure when you give up.

As for a winning player's mentality, let me try to paint a different picture: Those of us considered "good" or "competitive"? We were new once too. We got stomped. We lost a lot too. The difference is we didn't give up. We paid attention. We sought out information to get better. We listened to those who knew better and supported our teams. We weren't just making a crap shoot for a reward. We took those slim chances to turn around a game. Sometimes it worked. Sometimes it didn't. We didn't give up. I can't say it enough. We didn't give up. No one who fought hard to get good enough to win is ever going to "let" someone else win, and that idea has no place in a competitive environment. You want XP from PvP? You want some shiny reward? You better fight for it, cause all those other people want it too. Do they deserve it more than you? If your answer is No, then please tell me what kind of sense it makes to "let" them win?

[ElazulHP]

-snip-

If you don't trust the developer of the game you play then what are you still doing here? Obviously, they don't share your "vision" if you can call it such a thing. So instead of complaining just leave. SE doesn't care. I don't care. People that bother to read these forums or post in these forums are a minority. The average player just wants to log on and enjoy themselves and PvP is simply not enjoyable. However, the rest of the game is great. So, I do trust them more than I trust any of you in the forums. If nothing else because they're the ones with access to all the internal info. None of you guys have access to that information. Everything discussed in these forums is based on what tidbits they deign to throw our way or what is data mined from the game files. In other words its largely speculation. By all means speculate away in an endless circle jerk with the other pvp fanatics if it makes you feel better.

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

Here's the problem with that line of thought:

The moment you start shuffling your players into levels of importance based on whether a majority or a minority, you start down a very slippery slope. . . Say they did just get rid of PvP because the playerbase for it is a minority. What's next?

Not a lot of MCHs and ASTs, so they can go right?
Not many people play Roes. They can go, right?
Savage raiders? They're a minority still. They can go.
Balmung and Gilgamesh are full! Oh no! Meh, it's just 2 servers out of all of them. Whatever, right?
Hmm. . . only a few players have houses. Oh well! Housing is fine!

See where I'm going there?

Now, your little tantrum aside, I don't agree with a lot of PvP-related decisions they've made. That doesn't mean I hate PvP in this game. In fact I love it enough to actually TRY to be heard. I love it enough to teach other players who are interested rather than perpetuate the going misconceptions that have largely hindered its growth (even despite SE's missteps with it) these last 4 years. Your statements make it clear that you really don't know of which you speak when it comes to PvP. But hey! SE doesn't care, you don't care, and the "average" player just wants to log on and enjoy themselves, but PvP's not enjoyable?

Then why are so many of these "average" players PvPing now, and defending having XP in PvP? I mean, it's not enjoyable right? They could be running dungeons, or PotD, or doing fates; you know, anything more fun than that awful PvP that gives less XP than those anyways, right?

Now then, I do strongly recommend you actually read up on a few topics in the PvP section before trying to make a rebuttal. Might I recommend the almost year old "The New Chat Restriction In The Feast" where it took them 3 months and 40 pages to then ask for suggestions and feedback - all of which comprised the first 39 pages? Or perhaps all the ones about players wanting them to do something about the bots and wintraders, both of which have still gone unanswered? Or maybe the one where they admitted "Whoops! We didn't have enough time for balance changes before Season 5, but we're starting it anyways! Please give us your feedback for necessary balance changes"? (Spoiler Alert: Almost none of that feedback went into the balance changes at that time.) How would you love that approach to something you like in game? How would you love someone to come along and say "Whatever! SE doesn't care, I don't care, so it's not a problem! I trust their decision!" (Despite the fact that they don't care, right?)

Rather than trying to defend weak points with even weaker reasoning, read up and be a bit more informed about what you're trying to chime in on like that one person said.

[ElazulHP]

-snip-

Except, catering to the majority of your customers is exactly how big business works. You keep the majority of the customers happy which keeps the money flowing into the company which keeps the stock holders happy as well as everyone in the company employed to keep making content for everyone. Tweaks to classes relate to balance as a whole which is pretty big in keeping the majority of players happy. You and your small group of PvP "purists" are a minority in the bigger picture here. SE likely wants more people playing PvP which means attracting more players. How do they attract more players? By giving more incentives to play PvP which means XP, Tomestones, other rewards, ect. Removing PvP XP goes counter to what they're trying to do. The reason they probably increased XP is because they saw a drop in people playing PvP when they initially reduced PvP XP. Don't like it? Don't let the door hit your ass on the way out. SE is first and foremost a business and businesses exist to make money. The only way they will capitulate is if you hit them where it hurts by voting with your wallet.

Also, speaking of tantrums you might want to check yourself m8.

[kikix12]

Let me give this one my full attention.

Unfortunately, you didn't understand what I wrote, full attention or not.

First, let's not paint with broad strokes. It is entirely possible to be both competitive and compassionate. I know quite a number of PvPers in this game that are exactly that.

I said that egoistical behaviors are frequent in competitive players, not that all competitive players are like that. It's natural, it's how "competitiveness" is made. In its purest form, it is simply the drive to outdo others for your own gain. This is a fact. It is also a fact, that humans have a tendency to mix and mash stuff, so there are some people that change that pure form to include others that they consider allies. But the more competitive the player is, the rarer that becomes.

Putting that aside, let me not mince words here: there is nothing wrong with being non-competitve. There is EVERYTHING wrong with being non-competitive in a competitive environment. You don't have to care, but you do have to try.

You're mixing words. Competitiveness is not the same as being dutiful. A dutiful player will give it their all, because that's expected of them, because what they are doing affects others. A competitive player will give their all cause they just want to win, but fundamentally, nothing else matters. Sometimes not even their own fun.
A dutiful player can still give their all in a competitive environment, without the actual competitive spirit. A player that gives up halfway or sabotages the group to just have it end sooner...it's not a problem of lack of competitiveness, it's a problem of them being egoistical slackers. Two different things.

Take your lumps. But do it on your feet. Rolling over only guarantees you both lose, and learn nothing. Rolling over means you deserve nothing. Letting a team win just so you can end the match quickly and perhaps try again is pathetic, and if that sounds bad, that's because it IS.

And this proves best that you did not understand what I was trying to say.
In no way, shape or form did I condone such behavior. Quite the opposite, I pointed out how wrong it is...and that it is also present in people that are competitive. In reality, competitiveness actually does NOT mean "trying till end". There are few things that will make a player try till end that both competitive and non-competitive players can have. Being dutiful, enjoying the content, being fanatical or being petty are the ones that come to mind. All that you said makes me believe that you are dutiful...and that's exactly what I was supporting to begin with.

In the end, you are basing your post on a lot of misunderstandings. There is one archetype of what "competitive" and "non-competitive" means to you, and you assume it applies to all individual representatives of these two groups. It does not, because this is not a vacuum. There are other personality traits that largely modify the outcome. Some are more frequent in a group, others are less so. But they appear in both.

The post you made that I responded to was "painting with broad strokes", something you said not to do. It completely ignored the existence of players like me, that though do not seek competition, still do actually try till the end doing their best as far as their abilities go. Maybe not necessarily high, for the lack of experience, but hey. You implied it yourself. There's nothing wrong with being new, what's wrong is not trying.


Don't blame non-competitiveness when that's not the culprit.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

If you don't trust the developer of the game you play then what are you still doing here?

Perhaps because we still care. The devs are far from infallible. Look no further then the numerous balance issues that have plagued PvE. They insisted Paladin would never have magical mitigation due to their "vision." That stance changed when Paladin basically spent the entirety of Heavensward as a meme, and now it does exactly what the community wanted two years prior. On the PvP side of the equation, the devs clung to their silly GC restriction for two years despite numerous complaints. They were even embarrassed on their own live letter event by a 45+ minute queue. When they finally removed the restriction, PvP activity increased tremendously. Simply put, many players are better at the game than the developers. They post their complaints and offer feedback in the hopes improvements are made.

People who PvP enjoy PvP, and want it to be successful. Judging by the bot riddled mess Frontlines has devolved into, it isn't.

How do they attract more players? By giving more incentives to play PvP which means XP, Tomestones, other rewards, ect.

And you know how they lose players? By ignoring the fact a large amount aren't actually participating but merely botting for free experience. None of these players will remain once they have accomplished their respective leveling goals, but actual PvPers who enjoy the competitive nature will abandon it for better alternatives, which has already happened. Furthermore, it's a terrible metric to offer rewards that only benefit other modes and not the way you're actually engaged within. Literally nothing benefits PvP. They should be overhauling their PvP EXP system or offering rewards that cater to PvP interests, not PvE. As previously noted, PvP was fine once the GC restriction was removed. The inclusion of EXP has caused far more harm than good to the longevity of PvP.

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

I will say yes, there IS a difference between a competitive and dutiful player. In the absence of a competitive one, I'll take a dutiful one as, like you said, they will at least do their best. That is a far cry from that other person's idea of "letting the other team win to get it over with quickly".

That said, let's not make competitiveness sound like a bad thing. There are extremes, yes, but barring that, being competitive doesn't mean winning above all else, even your own fun. After all, isn't it more fun to win? I won't spark up the old "I play for fun" debate as that has its own flaws, but being competitive doesn't mean you're not having fun. Competition itself can be part of the fun. At higher levels, I know most competitive players enjoy a good fight more than an easy or guaranteed win.

Where my post diverged was both addressing you, and the original statement I criticized, and I perhaps wasn't clear between the two. What that other player said about letting another team win to get it over with is not okay at all, and I stand by my words on that. That kind of defeatist mentality was not present in PvP before they added XP as a reward, and it has no place there, competitive or not, XP or not. But it can't be overlooked that it became an issue once XP was offered, and that's a reason why some players who actually want to enjoy PvP want to see XP removed.

[Istaru]

-SNIP-

I agree with all of what you said.

Sorry that I only have but one like to give.