Remove Frontline experiece NOW - Group majority of bots

[Avatre]

I really only PVPed to get aether for my relic weapons, and for all the Garo gears. Haven't touched it more than twice since SB hit, and that was as a RDM, simply because I didn't really care enough to keep doing it on a daily basis when I had all my other roulettes, and limited time(don't always get through my roulettes daily unless it's the weekend either). So, if the EXP stays, or gets taken away, I don't really see it changing anything other than the bots who are in there JUST for the EXP stop entering.

[Nightroad]

I would be the first to agree I suck at pvp ,but i try to always to my best . And i know I am fighting against bots when i get more kills than deaths ....
You know what killed pvp for me ? Not the exp drop (i could care less) , not the pvp know-it-alls giving orders , not the bots or the "base guards" afking .
No , it was my inability to have a remote chance to kill a healer , never mind if there are two together.
I was watching guides and trying thing to get better , but when i saw 4 of us struggle to kill a running away healer ,i gave up .

[Joe777]

Make it so xp gain when your alliance loses is on par with Leves and that should solve the problem.

[Lufir]

EXP needs to be removed completely. It doesn't matter how much they nerf the EXP in Frontlines, bots are still gonna bot because it is free, guaranteed EXP. Not only are botters ruining the PvP experience, they are leveling all jobs while not even "playing". Other worthwhile sources of EXP at least needs you to be actively present. I've only seen one botter in a dungeon and it was quickly noticeable and we kicked him. You can't kick them in Frontlines when they are the majority. Reporting does nothing.

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

Here's the problem with that line of thought:

The moment you start shuffling your players into levels of importance based on whether a majority or a minority, you start down a very slippery slope. . . Say they did just get rid of PvP because the playerbase for it is a minority. What's next?

Not a lot of MCHs and ASTs, so they can go right?
Not many people play Roes. They can go, right?
Savage raiders? They're a minority still. They can go.
Balmung and Gilgamesh are full! Oh no! Meh, it's just 2 servers out of all of them. Whatever, right?
Hmm. . . only a few players have houses. Oh well! Housing is fine!

See where I'm going there?

Now, your little tantrum aside, I don't agree with a lot of PvP-related decisions they've made. That doesn't mean I hate PvP in this game. In fact I love it enough to actually TRY to be heard. I love it enough to teach other players who are interested rather than perpetuate the going misconceptions that have largely hindered its growth (even despite SE's missteps with it) these last 4 years. Your statements make it clear that you really don't know of which you speak when it comes to PvP. But hey! SE doesn't care, you don't care, and the "average" player just wants to log on and enjoy themselves, but PvP's not enjoyable?

Then why are so many of these "average" players PvPing now, and defending having XP in PvP? I mean, it's not enjoyable right? They could be running dungeons, or PotD, or doing fates; you know, anything more fun than that awful PvP that gives less XP than those anyways, right?

Now then, I do strongly recommend you actually read up on a few topics in the PvP section before trying to make a rebuttal. Might I recommend the almost year old "The New Chat Restriction In The Feast" where it took them 3 months and 40 pages to then ask for suggestions and feedback - all of which comprised the first 39 pages? Or perhaps all the ones about players wanting them to do something about the bots and wintraders, both of which have still gone unanswered? Or maybe the one where they admitted "Whoops! We didn't have enough time for balance changes before Season 5, but we're starting it anyways! Please give us your feedback for necessary balance changes"? (Spoiler Alert: Almost none of that feedback went into the balance changes at that time.) How would you love that approach to something you like in game? How would you love someone to come along and say "Whatever! SE doesn't care, I don't care, so it's not a problem! I trust their decision!" (Despite the fact that they don't care, right?)

Rather than trying to defend weak points with even weaker reasoning, read up and be a bit more informed about what you're trying to chime in on like that one person said.

[ElazulHP]

-snip-

Except, catering to the majority of your customers is exactly how big business works. You keep the majority of the customers happy which keeps the money flowing into the company which keeps the stock holders happy as well as everyone in the company employed to keep making content for everyone. Tweaks to classes relate to balance as a whole which is pretty big in keeping the majority of players happy. You and your small group of PvP "purists" are a minority in the bigger picture here. SE likely wants more people playing PvP which means attracting more players. How do they attract more players? By giving more incentives to play PvP which means XP, Tomestones, other rewards, ect. Removing PvP XP goes counter to what they're trying to do. The reason they probably increased XP is because they saw a drop in people playing PvP when they initially reduced PvP XP. Don't like it? Don't let the door hit your ass on the way out. SE is first and foremost a business and businesses exist to make money. The only way they will capitulate is if you hit them where it hurts by voting with your wallet.

Also, speaking of tantrums you might want to check yourself m8.

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

I will say yes, there IS a difference between a competitive and dutiful player. In the absence of a competitive one, I'll take a dutiful one as, like you said, they will at least do their best. That is a far cry from that other person's idea of "letting the other team win to get it over with quickly".

That said, let's not make competitiveness sound like a bad thing. There are extremes, yes, but barring that, being competitive doesn't mean winning above all else, even your own fun. After all, isn't it more fun to win? I won't spark up the old "I play for fun" debate as that has its own flaws, but being competitive doesn't mean you're not having fun. Competition itself can be part of the fun. At higher levels, I know most competitive players enjoy a good fight more than an easy or guaranteed win.

Where my post diverged was both addressing you, and the original statement I criticized, and I perhaps wasn't clear between the two. What that other player said about letting another team win to get it over with is not okay at all, and I stand by my words on that. That kind of defeatist mentality was not present in PvP before they added XP as a reward, and it has no place there, competitive or not, XP or not. But it can't be overlooked that it became an issue once XP was offered, and that's a reason why some players who actually want to enjoy PvP want to see XP removed.

[kikix12]

That said, let's not make competitiveness sound like a bad thing.

I didn't. You exaggerate on what I said. I repeatedly use words like "tend to" or "frequent", while you seem to take them as absolutes. They're not.
And I did clearly state what competitiveness is at its core. That means, that it is the foundation of what competitiveness defines. However, I also said that it's not a vacuum. Pure and blue competitiveness does not exist, just like pure and blue kindness, egoism, love or just about anything else. However, the fundaments are important. And yes, there ARE players for which it's not fun. They are often the sort that are pressured into being the best as they grow up, and they tend to force upon themselves that even against common sense. I've met a lot of such people over the years in various games. Even winning may not be fun for them, and not winning is just terrible. It is a lot more prevalent than you seem to think.

Everything, competitiveness as well, have its good and bad sides, cause everything is what people make of it. Just how anger or pain are fundamentally important aspects for humans survival, despite in the everyday life being complained about, or how love can lead to extreme tragedies, despite being written on by poets as the most wonderful thing in life.

(...)but being competitive doesn't mean you're not having fun. Competition itself can be part of the fun.

I never said otherwise. Please stop seeing "absolutes" where they do not exist. Especially since you doing that in the first place is what provoked me to respond. This and nothing more.

That kind of defeatist mentality was not present in PvP before they added XP as a reward, and it has no place there, competitive or not, XP or not. But it can't be overlooked that it became an issue once XP was offered, and that's a reason why some players who actually want to enjoy PvP want to see XP removed.

I've seen it even before. What may have changed is how it's prevalent from the get-go rather than three or so minutes into the fight. As I said, I literally met people that decided the team can't win and decided to "give up" waiting for the time to pass...or even threw themselves as fodder. They may not have been doing that for experience, but to try again in a different team composition sooner, but it doesn't change the fact that it did happen. Just maybe not as often.

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

Not speaking in absolutes, just rounding things out where they aren't.

I however remain steadfast in saying a defeatist mentality has no place in a competitive environment. Go ask any athlete if it makes sense at all to just give up or let the other team win. I say that having been in plenty of those landslide matches against groups like the infamous Balmung and Gilgamesh premades. I say that having directed teams to fight hard and turn around a match that seemed a guaranteed win for the other teams. I say that knowing the difference that being competitive in a competitive environment can make. I've seen those same things you mentioned, and while it's infuriating to see, I often choose to rally and push a team if I have to. Sometimes, all people need is someone to step up and lead. But that will never happen if ideas like "just give up and let the other team win so you can try again sooner" are left to stand. Do that, and you'll be throwing matches and losing all the time just waiting for that big chance that'll never come unless you take it.

Pressure is a bit irrelevant as there isn't, and shouldn't be any pressure involved at all. It's a game. You play it to enjoy it. If competition isn't enjoyable, don't do it. We've covered the fact that there are different and more bountiful XP options, and this is why I take the hardline approach to it. PvP went from shunned and avoided to suddenly everyone's XP cash cow. You got people wanting the reward, but neither being skilled or competitive enough for it, nor wanting to be. Sure, it doesn't take any kind of peak performance to do well in PvP, but when so few even meet the bar, and don't want to learn because they're "just here for the XP" that's no good for anyone. I mean, the same rules apply in PvE as well. Want the loot at the end of the instance? Make effort. Pull your weight. No pressure, that's just the minimum expectation of anyone.