Thread: Consolidating Warrior 4.0 Feedback Thread

Originally Posted by SyzzleSpark

I just want to point out that both Inner Beast and Steel Cyclone deal more damage then Fell Cleave and Decimate would if they were usable in Defiance.

This part was wrong.

Edit:
To make it more clear.

Inner Beast is a 350 potency attack in Defiance, since it is not affected by the Defiance penalty.
Fell Cleave would be 400 potency in Defiance, since it would be affected by the Defiance penalty.

Tbh i will go back to stack system...but i know will not happend,anyway defo need some love,atm no matter what people say War dont bring anything,not even best dps of the 3 tank.

Change need:
- Stance penality gone or reworked,like make us keep the rage up to 50?lose only the "extra" one?that way at least if you swap you still have enough to do an action.

- Need utility,path will never come back now and slashing is on ninja/sam rotation now.
Some suggest Thrill of battle like in pvp,i do agree,will work like an hp shield for party,but change Thrill not in place of Shake it off.

- Shake it off gone,give us a party buff,crit buff?10%?just something that have some use.

- Path combo potency have to go up,at least as eye if not even as BB,and BB give 20 rage,path combo when OT,BB combo when MT.

- I would love even hp recovery effect on Steel cyclone,since we lost bloodbath.

- Unchaine and Inner Release not share recast time, no reason, simple kill Unchained skill atm.

- Onslaught no rage cost or double potency,maybe even a mix of those can work? 150 potency/10 rage?

- Infuriate outside battle, to avoid the stack rege before pull can simply add the old 30 second timer since you cant do anymore generate rage whit RI and Vengeance.

I would prefer it if they would get rid of the stance penalty, give us utility, remove Shake it Off etc., but those points have already been brought up enough so I won't spend a lot of time just repeating them. I have a few ideas for what they could do if they really don't want to go back on the 4.0 changes.

If WAR isn't going to get any utility at all and doesn't get the gauge penalty removed, both stances should be supercharged to make it feel worth the penalty of either losing gauge or just being locked out of 4 skills. In Defiance, WAR would need a big boost to sustain, maybe from a slight mitigation increase but preferably from better self healing. 4.0 PLD's healing is ridiculous compared to even 3.0 WAR. IB could easily go back to its original 300% on top of keeping the mitigation. Path needs a huge healing boost because honestly, it's incredibly underwhelming and unnoticeable. Boost it to 200-300% and even then it wouldn't be overpowered because it doesn't actually get used that often. Equilibrium should get a boost, especially because its potency isn't affected by Defiance/Convalescence. Speaking of Equilibrium, make it a healing skill in both stances. The TP is useless in single target and we don't want to swap stance in aoe now. Basically, give Defiance big boosts so that tanking actually feels good even when locked out of your hardest hitting skills.

For Deliverance, if WAR isn't going to get any utility at all, it should just get a huge dps boost. Enough that WAR would be on the level of a STR tank even when we're locked out of using them. Put DRK at some halfway point between PLD and WAR because it has some utility.

My preferred change for Shake it Off is to replace it with Thrill of War, but if it's not going anywhere it should get a huge buff: it should work on every debuff in the game. Paralyse, vuln up, damage down, stuns, poison, tankbuster stacking debuffs, Lakshmi's pvp confuse, even Weakness. Whatever negatively affects the WAR should be removed. I don't think that one person having this would make it much easier to clear fights, but it would be nice to be able to sacrifice a WAR to a mechanic, then they just get up, Shake it Off, and go back to whatever they were doing before.

I'm sure none of this is balanced, but the idea is to make both stances feel great for different reasons so that you're fine with being stuck in one stance (or so that swapping to Defiance doesn't just feel bad because you lose gauge).

Although I prefer 3.0 Warrior state(as do we all) as opposed to 4.0. The 4.0 complexity in rotation is something I've ironically always desired.

My personal preferences might be strange but I believe would be more enjoyable. To me anyways.

Defiance/Deliverance - Change cost from 50% gauge to 250 TP. In Single Target, Warrior has never suffered any TP problems due to the IB skills being costless GCDs. Yet they also possess an Invigorate-lite skill when PLD and previously DRK had trouble maintaining their own TP. This would truly make Equilibrium a trade-off skill wherein you would need to use it's TP equivalent if you intend to stance swap alot or stance swap with low resources.
Global Change: Sword Oath and Deliverance is always active. Shield Oath and Defiance remove Sword Oath and Deliverance respectively and apply their own stat bonuses in place. Stance change is now a one button press.

Onslaught and Upheaval: Unchanged.
Upheaval I won't need to comment on since it's a good skill if not bland. But Onslaught is an interesting skill. At face value, it is a horrible trade-off of beast gauge for it's effect. But the 100 potency is infact quite splendid because in a Storm's Eye+Storm's Path rotation, you end up with overflow of IB and can burn it off on Onslaught as opposed to Storm's Eye+Butcher's Block. Doing Path and Onslaught would net you a plus + 20 potency over the latter. It's a micro optimization I enjoy that also sacrifices your ability to do a 1000 Enmity Pot snap aggro+gap closer if you burn it for the minor potency increase. A small tradeoff, but one that wouldn't make you cringe as much as you would if you had to press Defiance.

Shake it off your bar. Too OP or Too UP. Bad concept, bad skill.

Unchained/Inner Release: Lower Inner Release's CD to 60 or 90(Give me back old Berserk).
Unchained: Does not share a recast timer with Inner Release. But costs 100 instead of 20.
Why 100? Because Unchained is the biggest DPS increase button that also grants you the buff of Defiance(The HP and the Aggro). It is worth more than 2 Fell Cleaves if you have to use it for the full duration. This one isn't really a big deal but Inner Beast and Steel Cyclone are upgraded under Unchained: Fell Beast(500 Pot, 100% Lifesteal, 20% Mitigation for 6 seconds) and Steel Decimation(280 Pot, x6 enmity modifier). The last section is possibly over the top but it is fun to think of.

And lastly, Global Change to Tank Stance and maybe cooldowns. I don't have creative ideas or flavours but I want to present a concept moreso and you will know what concept I will be referencing.

Tank Stances: Grant a Shield to self that equals to 10% of your maximum HP. When this Shield expires, grant 50 beast gauge/blood gauge/oath gauge.
Cooldowns: Inflict 50 pot of damage to enemies when hit.

Incase you don't understand: Make using cooldowns and Tank Stances rewarding. Because that is frankly all I want tanking to be. I want more DPS as a tank not just because it's about the big dick DPS numbers and I'm frankly tired of that narrowminded generalization. I want to be rewarded for playing the class well and that for doing so, to have an actual impact. I desire that skill gap.

All in all, as a retired Tank Main I am heavily disappointed by the direction that Stormblood is taking tanks. My axe will always be in my heart, but until SE quits fudging around with tanks after promising Balance for the price of a new tank, that is where it will stay. Hopefully 4.05 won't be a disappointment.









Did I mention how wet The Blackest Night and its very concept makes me?

My thoughts on why warriors are broken. Warning and applogies: War and Peace levels of text.

First off, they still feel like a decent tank. But when I say tank, I mean brick wall. We seem to have a very powerful cooldown in the form of Inner Beast. If SQEX’s goal was to have warriors be a brick wall tank, they did a good job.

I really feel like warriors are broken for a different reason. The “spirit” or “feel” of the warrior just isn’t as good as it was. I don’t mean “it’s not the best tank anymore, so it doesn’t feel right”. But I mean just the raw feeling of the warrior isn’t there anymore. Here is what I mean:

One of the things we all loved as warriors was the Offensive tank. We have these hulking huge battle axes, we must tame our Inner Beast to keep from decimating armies, we temper our anger with our desire to protect our allies to calm the beast inside. But these days, that feeling is gone. Warrior had that feeling captured by being the undisputed champion of tank DPS in the last expansion through various means. We used offensive cooldowns to buff our defense, such as hitting Berserk to improve our HP gain through Bloodbath and inner beast and\or Unchained (if in Defiance), or using vengeance to counter attack multiple adds with bloodbath and berserk. We also used defensive cooldowns to aggressively improve our offense, such as using raw intuition to boost our Wrath stacks for more Fel Cleaves or Decimates. This was engaging gameplay, but more importantly, it fit with the warriors Aggressive Tank theme.

One of the biggest problems with the warrior as it exists now, is that you must choose to be offensive or defensive, and once you’ve made your choice, you’re stuck with it for a while. It used to be so fluid to switch between the two, it really felt like a choice. Now, with the way beast gauge works, it feels like you must be stuck with your choice for a while longer, even beyond the cooldown for stance swapping. Before if you made 5 stacks, but knew a big hit was coming, swap to Defiance, turtle up, take the hit, swap back to deliverance ASAP. Need to stay in defiance for a while? Hit Unchained, and keep going! That choice isn’t there anymore. The resource loss is almost never worth stance dancing for a small bit of time, leading to more boring game play.

I feel that warriors should be the king of tank DPS again. SQEX has shown that they don’t have a problem making one DPS class higher than the rest by sacrificing utility (looking at you SAM), and I feel they could bring this to the Warrior too. I don’t mean far and away the best, and I don’t mean the “Best when you consider 6 fel cleaves” either. The 6 fel cleave dream feels like it artificially increases our DPS, and the conditions for use must be perfect. I feel that we should have consistent, even DPS most of the time, then get some good Fel Cleave usage during the berserk window, but not relying on 6 Fel Cleave Dreams to keep us in the running. The Warrior needs to be powerful, but not so powerful that the utility of the paladin or dark knight are forgotten.

Now we come to the part where I make suggestions. Many of them have been suggested before, and many of them are good. But we should go through why they are good too (in case SQEX reads this!). As I make suggestions, please remember that my goal is the following:

1. Preserve the aggressive tank feel. We are a tank first and foremost, and many of our skills should reflect that. But we also are aggressive, and many of our skills should reflect that as well. The goal is defensive cooldowns that have offensive use, and offensive cooldowns that have defensive use.
2. I’m trying to avoid 6 fel cleaves being the crux of our rotation. It’s dumb, especially when we can’t line it up perfectly. Instead, I focused on smoothing gauge generation, but removing the ability to get in 6 Fel Cleaves. You should still be able to get several Fel Cleaves in a berserk window, for burst damage, however, but not 6.
3. I’ve tried to bring the feeling of the aggressive warrior around. Making it so that tanking in Deliverance is easier by allowing some threat increases in Deliverance, etc… You should still feel far sturdier in Defiance (between Inner beast and other skills), but you should be able to make the choice of which stance to utilize for any situation.
4. Do not give the warrior any utility. IMO, the Paladin should be 3rd on damage, but 1st on utility. The Dark Knight should be 2nd on damage and utility. The Warrior should be 1st on damage, and provide little utility. Slashing Debuff is enough.

First off, change how much gauge we lose when changing stances. Since our Defiance doesn’t really kick in until we are healed, I think a 0 gauge cost is appropriate, but when you consider all the other changes I’m about to suggest, I believe that it would also be over powered. Maybe a 10 or 20 gauge cost, based on current gauge.

Inner Release: This skill is twofold, it’s exciting to get, but it also makes me angry. This skill is responsible for the “6 Fel Cleaves” thing, which is amazing but should NOT be the cornerstone of our DPS. If I was trying to balance this, I would make this skill a little different. Like many people suggested, I think it should no longer share a cooldown with Unchained. I think the effect needs to be different too. I would make it so that either the next Gauge spending attack recovers gauge equal to what it would have spent, instead of halves it, or that the next gauge spending attack doesn’t use gauge. Then add an HP recovery on attacks (like the old bloodbath) for the duration as well. Again, the goal here would be to make warriors DPS higher, but also rely less on the 6 fel cleave dream.

Shake it Off: This skill would be amazing with a shorter\no cooldown, and it worked on more things. As it is, the effect is nice, but unused in so many cases, that it feels like an empty skill. In light of my inner release re-adding a bloodbath like effect, I would change Shake it Off down to 30 seconds, and change it so that our next Gauge spending attack restored HP equal to 100% of the damage done. Use this skill to double Inner Beast’s healing, or tack on Healing to Fel Cleave. Decimate for a lot of healing, or Steel Cyclone for Healing and threat.

Onslaught: There are many people talking about this skill and I can see why. Honestly, Onslaught needs to either cost no gauge, or it needs to generate a minimum amount of gauge, but do no damage. Both are viable options. The extra threat on Onslaught is almost forgotten, and could probably be removed. If the warrior is going to be aggressive, he needs to move around the battlefield to where he is needed.

Raw Intuition, Berserk, and Vengeance should generate gauge on use again. Keeping with the theme of using offensive cooldowns for defense, and defensive for offense. It allows us to use these skills offensively, and helps normalize our gauge with the changes to inner release above.

Unchained should gain a special effect in Deliverance (again, when you consider unpairing Unchained from Inner Release). In my opinion, this should be the increase threat while in Deliverance to Defiance like levels. Again, this would be considering we are the aggressive tank.

Inner Beast and Storm’s Path should have their HP regen portion brought back up to 100%\50% at higher levels. Additionally, if you use Inner Beast while Inner Beast is still active, you should increase the healing done by Inner Beast to 200%, while refreshing the timer. Maybe even lower the damage back down to 300 potency for this change, to keep things from getting out of hand.

I feel Butcher’s Block should not generate additional Beast Gauge. Leave that on Storm’s Path. However, choice is always good. I would make Butcher’s Block ignore the damage penalty in Defiance, and generate extra threat in Deliverance. This allows people to have a choice on what combo to use (Do I want the extra DPS in Defiance over gauge generation? Do I need the extra threat in Deliverance over gauge generation?).

Next up is accessories. Many tanks are angered by the current state of our right side. I just want to put my vote in for adding STR to Fending Accessories, but if they just added VIT to the damage calculation, that would be fine too. Just something. Right now, as other classes have their damage scale from a full 11 pieces of armor (not including weapon\shield), tanks only get a damage increase from 6. This means that every gear jump, the damage disparity between the two roles will increase. This is something that SQEX needs to resolve before too long, but it sounds like they have ideas for the next patch. I won’t lie, the fact that they said we are gearing with strength for enmity does worry me that the devs are out of touch. So let me make it as clear as I can.

All classes are more fun with bigger numbers. Tanks DPS should not be insignificant. Doing a lot of damage as a tank is a lot of fun, just as fun as protecting your allies from danger. We don’t need to be the top of the DPS charts, but doing more DPS is a lot of fun. I hate to use “that” example, but another popular MMO has completely removed damage penalties from their tanking stances (in some cases, tanking stances all together), and it has been met with great success. That MMO has the damage intake set differently than FF14, so we can’t do the same thing as they did, but we can make it so that tanks still enjoy the feeling of HUGE numbers (just not as huge as DPS classes). Increasing our damage is fun, engaging, and it keeps us competing with threat without having to keep adjusting threat.

My final thoughts are this: We need something for low level dungeons. The threat increase for Overpower in 4.01 was great, but it’s not enough. Right now, Paladins and Dark Knights spend Mana to hold AoE threat in lower levels. They can also regen mana at those levels. Warriors need to spend TP, but have no way to restore TP during this. The only solution I can think of this is to have Berserk half the cost of TP spending moves, and double the TP regen while it’s active, but this might be too powerful. However, it would fix our reliance on TP, but lessen the value of the TP restore from Equilibrium. I’m sure there is something else that could be done, but I can’t think of it right now.

Thanks for reading, sorry for spelling\grammar mistakes and the length of the post.