LOLSE, We're not wearing 270 STR to hold hate, c'mon now...

[Inuakurei]

That's what I'm saying. Mitigation isn't a metric. If I can tank the content to get me the higher vit gear, I don't need the gear to tank the content. it doesn't make clearing the content go any faster. It isn't any more satisfying taking a tank buster with higher vit. It just means I can start ignoring mechanics and be lazy.

I think what he means is that the metric in which to judge a Tank should be some sort of mitigation. Be that though skills, gear, etc. IMO a lot needs to change if SE wants the "tank dps" mindset to go away, its a fundamental problem in the Tank skills / game mechanics. Simply taking away the damage and giving us a tenacity stat without doing much else isn't enough.

[Nowakii]

From a healer POV i really understand what you mean with vit being useless..... i see a lot of people (who i assume are non-healers) saying that vit is good because you can "tank more" wich is not true.... maybe it just removes some stress but is too far away from "tanking more" ... as healer, i need the same amount of heals(GCD+MP) to recover a tank from a tank buster despite them having 20k or 100k HP yeah ofc if they have more vit they dont need to be fulled as fast as some1 with low Hp, but at the end of the day im the one who needs to full that HP again and if i do it now or later, the amount of heals i need to cast remain the same, since my heals arent Target's HP dependant but my own stats....
Take big pulls for example, a tank with 100k Hp is more likely to make my life easier than one with 20k hp ? yeah, maybe for the first 5-10 seconds of the fight since they dont need "urgent heals" so i can dps, but when they reach some break point on their Hp im gonna need to start healing them, and once again my heals restore the same amount of HP to some1 with 20k and 100k, the total Mp used is the same, the total CGC+oGCD is the same (and actually i would feel stressed at the moment of heals since im gonna feel my heals arent doing much cuz of the total % amount of hp restored)....

TL;DR: We (healers) dont have Heals/shields that scales with target's Hps (Stone skin was the only thing and now its gone) so the amount of HP a tank has is meanless to us as long as they can stay alive on a tank buster, the problem is not tank's doing bad dps, but them being forced to get VIT when it helps nothing to the party or themselves.

[Inosaska]

Yeah it's always bothered me that the Greatsword and Greataxe did less damage then other weapons when the standard for those weapons was they were slower but hit a fuckton harder. But in XIV they hit like a wet noodle.

That's the one thing that doesn't make any sense in the game. Why give these jobs big huge weapons that hit for so little. I think they need to sit back and take a big look at how they plan for tanks act in the game and for future tanks being added because right now it just looks odd when a big weapon hits for so little damage.

[YitharV2]

I think what he means is that the metric in which to judge a Tank should be some sort of mitigation. Be that though skills, gear, etc. IMO a lot needs to change if SE wants the "tank dps" mindset to go away, its a fundamental problem in the Tank skills / game mechanics. Simply taking away the damage and giving us a tenacity stat without doing much else isn't enough.

Yeah I really like the way TERA did it, in which a perfect tank would take 0 damage. It says a lot about game design when a good tank is almost solely measured by how much DPS they do. That being said, the meta in TERA is also tanks doing a large amount of DPS.

However I don't see them going the route TERA did because it had a pretty high learning curve.

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

That's what I'm saying. Mitigation isn't a metric. If I can tank the content to get me the higher vit gear, I don't need the gear to tank the content. it doesn't make clearing the content go any faster. It isn't any more satisfying taking a tank buster with higher vit. It just means I can start ignoring mechanics and be lazy.

Following that logic, what's the point of gearing up with +damage? You can clear the content without that shiny new gear and it won't do anything for you. There's nothing satisfying about dropping an instance two seconds faster or getting a crit with 50 more points of damage.

[Nowakii]

Following that logic, what's the point of gearing up with +damage? You can clear the content without that shiny new gear and it won't do anything for you. There's nothing satisfying about dropping an instance two seconds faster or getting a crit with 50 more points of damage.

Actually, there is xD you feel better cuz you hit harder hence finish stuff faster...

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

Actually, there is xD you feel better cuz you hit harder hence finish stuff faster...

Nope. I couldn't care less. 41k, 34k, idgaf what the numbers are so long as the thing dies. Why? How is that fun when I couldn't care less about epeen?

Hell, I turned off floating numbers because it's pretty pointless.

[Odstarva]

Just because warriors (in general) are being loud (and extremely vocal) about losing their DPS doesn't mean we all are.

I know more than a few tanks, dark knights and paladins, that are -just- fine with the changes being made. Heck, we've had a few discussions regarding the whole mentality that tanks should be a relevant contributor to damage.

Do not misunderstand, don't even try to make it out like I like being lazy. I -always- try to maximize my DPS when I'm playing paladin or dark knight, I do, be it dungeon or ex trial or raid content. Likewise, I try to optimize the usage of my cooldowns so I'm not caught with my pants down when tank busters are on the way - but I do not get ANY satisfaction from seeing big numbers. It's not my primary concern. It never should have been.

My job is to keep the enmity, to position the enemy accordingly, to mitigate damage for myself and my party. Just like with healers, I agree that I should try my best to optimize my damage output, of course I should, I like to believe that's what separates a good tank from a great tank. But it's a bonus, it should never have been a requirement.

[Baci]

Can anybody of the "muhdontneeddps" people explain why the majority of new skills for the tanks are dps skills and not tools to further increase our mitigation/survivability

[Odstarva]

Can anybody of the "muhdontneeddps" people explain why the majority of new skills for the tanks are dps skills and not tools to further increase our mitigation/survivability

Another warrior.


*cough*

I never said we don't need to dps. I said it isn't our primary concern. Or secondary. Tertiary concern, maybe.
I'll write it out again - of course we should maximize our dps output. But it starts and ends there. It's silly that some tanks (warriors) believe that DPS is the end-goal. We aren't the damage dealers in our group. We aren't.

"It isn't even our secondary concern" and "of course we should maximize our DPS output" feels like incredibly contradictory statements.

To elaborate, what I meant by it is that although I completely agree we should play to the best of our ability, it isn't something we should actively worry about. Like, I always try to do my best because otherwise I'm not having fun but if I need to pick between dealing a few more numbers and eating a buster, or dealing a bit less and taking less damage, I'll go with the latter.