Problem: Items are Worthless

[origamikitsune]

The biggest flaw of that "fundamental" system, where crafting classes are supposed to be classes just as the Battle ones is...there will never EVER be anything like CoP again, ever. Crafting classes are supposed to be able to get all "Story Quests" done, just like Battle Classes...which makes challenging battles like in CoP completely impossible.

The fact that so many people liked CoP and still think it was the best storyline in FFXI so far(and prolly will be forever) was not only the storyline itself being really good, but it was the whole "effort" it took to actually experience it.

Something like this will never be in FFXIV ever, when crafting classes stay the way they are.
I do craft myself...I do it a lot actually...but crafting classes being part of "Main Classes" is just limiting the content they could implement for Battle Classes and wether you like it or not...the majority of the players still play Battle Classes over Crafting Classes.

The ONLY option right now to get something like CoP in the game and let crafting classes stay the way they are would be, to implement 2 different Storylines for Battle and Crafting Classes. Battle Classes should experience the Storyline from a more battle involved perspective, while crafting classes could experience the Storyline from a more "supportive" perspective, for example there is a big battle going on between the Garlean Empire and the leftover nomads from Ala Mihgo. Battle Classes could be directly participating in that battle, while crafting classes experience it from the "defense" line and craft stuff for the nomads battling on the field or anything like that. Make the Storylines reward different things to match the Class you're playing it with(just like the CoP Rings for each class, just make it crafting/battle/mage rings for example)

The only reason I want to see crafting classes being treated as what they are, is the fact that it would ruin the possibilities for the storyline when it comes to challenging fights.

PS: Do you actually play FFXIV? Cause there is no character shown on the Lodestone on either Sanctus Refero, or Origami Kitsune...

Yes, I play, my character name is "Pooka Pucel" on Besaid. And I agree with you whole heartedly about CoP being awesome. I happen to also agree that it will be impossible to have CoP -if- they insist on present the story from a single perspective. The solution, I believe, is to maintain crafters as primary classes AND show it by giving plot from two perspectives - DoH/DoL and DoM/DoW. Whether or not SE will do that, I do not know. And if they can't (say, SE won't pay to develop two story lines) then they SHOULD focus on a story line for DoW/DoM and introduce CoP quality content. BUT, in a perfect world, they will give DoW/DoM CoP quality storyline + combat, and DoL/DoH CoP quality storyline + content that is different.

[Amineri]

The biggest flaw of that "fundamental" system, where crafting classes are supposed to be classes just as the Battle ones is...there will never EVER be anything like CoP again, ever. Crafting classes are supposed to be able to get all "Story Quests" done, just like Battle Classes...which makes challenging battles like in CoP completely impossible.

Let my point out that the premise of including crafters and gatherers does not preclude the concept of challenging and epic stories and missions. Currently the major story arc is solo-only, and thus the combat is toned down to a point where it is trivial for a combat class. When group-based quest content is added this need not be the case.

So far the concept of crafters and gatherers as fully realized classes in their own right is new, and there is much to be added to make it a complete system. Let me point you here for one concept I've had about how to make exciting challenges that require a diversity of classes to succeed.

[TirionCrey]

Let my point out that the premise of including crafters and gatherers does not preclude the concept of challenging and epic stories and missions. Currently the major story arc is solo-only, and thus the combat is toned down to a point where it is trivial for a combat class. When group-based quest content is added this need not be the case.

So far the concept of crafters and gatherers as fully realized classes in their own right is new, and there is much to be added to make it a complete system. Let me point you here for one concept I've had about how to make exciting challenges that require a diversity of classes to succeed.

And that's the whole point for me. Group based Story content is not gonna be in the game ever, as long as Crafters are supposed to be able to finish those storylines as well. They would have to make Crafters somewhat "Battle"classes to actually give them use in those battles, like giving them debuffs(which they "announced weay before the beta started"...)
I remember SE saying that Armorers for example could use a skill to lower the defense of an armor based mob, since they have in depth knowledge about armor...but this is not the case...they are just crafting and nothing else and if it stays this way, there will be no group based story content, cause it would exclude crafters from it. They would have to remake all crafting and gathering classes...and lets be honest...this is not gonna happen.

Yes i do. And if you don't then i guess you didn't pick a nice class to fight Maat the first time. ^^

So you felt "epic" and like you saved the world when you defeated Maat? <.<
I was refering to Ealdanarche, Kamlanaut and Promathia etc...if you would have fought these bosses solo...and they would be as easdy as current fights in FFXIV...

They only thing that I would feel is...why wasn't "08/15" Adventurer No.17853 killing this shit quick?

[Lienn]

Well, IMO turning crafters and gatheres classes instead of game features was an awesome idea. And just because a crafter cannot fight right now doesn't mean they will never fight. This game is, pretty much, a skelleton of what its supposed to be...as the content start adding some flesh to this skelleton more challenging stuff will pop. And i bet that there will be DoW/M oriented content hard enough to make CoP lovers wet their pants...only difference might be the fight duration...i doubt we will ever again have endgame with 1hr+ fight...i believe Pandemonium Warden was the last long fight SE will ever add in a MMO since it broght more negative feelings than positive.

And about CoP, this ond did was one of the biggest flaw ever...know why? Because it was no fun. I'm really happy that CoP will never happen again...i really am. If i knew how bad it was i would've just skipped the expansion. I think after completing the CoP missions i only went to Sea to farm gorgets and even this i still regret. No rajas or gorget is worth the stress and frustration that came from that expansion.

[TirionCrey]

Well, IMO turning crafters and gatheres classes instead of game features was an awesome idea. And just because a crafter cannot fight right now doesn't mean they will never fight. This game is, pretty much, a skelleton of what its supposed to be...as the content start adding some flesh to this skelleton more challenging stuff will pop. And i bet that there will be DoW/M oriented content hard enough to make CoP lovers wet their pants...only difference might be the fight duration...i doubt we will ever again have endgame with 1hr+ fight...i believe Pandemonium Warden was the last long fight SE will ever add in a MMO since it broght more negative feelings than positive.

And about CoP, this ond did was one of the biggest flaw ever...know why? Because it was no fun. I'm really happy that CoP will never happen again...i really am. If i knew how bad it was i would've just skipped the expansion. I think after completing the CoP missions i only went to Sea to farm gorgets and even this i still regret. No rajas or gorget is worth the stress and frustration that came from that expansion.

Just a simple question. When you reach the final mission of the current Storyline and fight whater final boss it will have. Will you have the feeling the fight is "epic" and you actually safed the world from extinction, when all it takes is you, alone, fighting that "mob" for 1minute max? Will you feel accomplished and like you "achieved" something?

the fact alone that you think CoP was more frustrating then "fun" only shows you prolly did it with pick up groups only, or with "friends" who got no skill, cause seriously. CoP was challenging, but with preperation EACH fight was doable 1/1 easily. I personally formed a static for CoP back when I played FFXI, consisting of RL and In-Game friends. We almost cleared every fight 1/1...yes...even Airship and Tenzen etc...with proper preparation it was easily doable...but with pick up groups, all they want is to start the fight, wipe 2 times and break...of course CoP wasn't fun that way...but it wasn't SEs fault...it was your fault then. CoP was not Zilart, where you could rush through the Missions in a day...and thats something that made it even better. Cause the storyline was epic AND the fights in it were challenging to actually favour that "epic" feel.

When I defeated Promathia, I felt like I really saved the world.

[Lienn]

Just a simple question. When you reach the final mission of the current Storyline and fight whater final boss it will have. Will you have the feeling the fight is "epic" and you actually safed the world from extinction, when all it takes is you, alone, fighting that "mob" for 1minute max? Will you feel accomplished and like you "achieved" something?

Yes i do. And if you don't then i guess you didn't pick a nice class to fight Maat the first time. ^^

And i agree with Amineri. Having crafters and gatherers as class is a brand new idea. Depennding of the way they develop the usage of classes, having a crafter in party might be just as important as having a tank, which wouldn't be possible in games where crafting is just a feature like FFXI.

But another point, moving back to topics' context, would be, instead offusing weapons to make a even higher version would be, if you just want to get rid of NQ stuff, being able to "crystalize" the NQ stuff...

Imagine the current fish recipes...you put a fish and receive a certain amount of crystals...it would work in a similar way...you enter a equipment and turn it into a (just putting a random name) crystal powder. Crystal powers wouldn't be part of any recipe...instead, they would be able to be added in any other recipe that don't use the 8 slots (let's say you will make an ash cane. It only uses a formula alpha and an ash log, leaving 6 open slots. You could just fill these 6 slots with the powder) Powders, which could also be from NQ to +3, would increase starting quality and durability just like if you had a higher tier item at that slot (NQ working as if you had a +1 mat, +1 working as a +2 mat and so on). This would improve the HQ chances, remove unwanted equipments from market and not adding an extra tier item.

Or you could just do like suggested in another thread....make HQ -> HQ conversion proportional. If all mats are at least +1 you get a sure +1 result from the synth. If all mats are at least +2 you get a sure +2 result and if all mats are +3 you get a sure +3 result. This would increase the value of HQ materials but, at same time, protect the value of all equipment tiers since they all would have a closer potential rarity. Would be more like how much a player would be willing to pay in an equipment than really offer/demand.

[Raijin]

Or you could just do like suggested in another thread....make HQ -> HQ conversion proportional. If all mats are at least +1 you get a sure +1 result from the synth. If all mats are at least +2 you get a sure +2 result and if all mats are +3 you get a sure +3 result. This would increase the value of HQ materials but, at same time, protect the value of all equipment tiers since they all would have a closer potential rarity. Would be more like how much a player would be willing to pay in an equipment than really offer/demand.

this is a bad idea. devaluing the HQ items considerably is not an option.

I think either the addition of a desynth for NQ items is a good idea to remove these items from the economy. but instead of having that powdery thing to empower future synths, i think a system such as aions enchanting cwould be a good idea.

If youre not familiar with it, you basically can DE any item to get a stone of certain level, which can be used to enchant your armor and weapons for additional stats. When you fail that enchant, you lose part of that additional bonus and have to try again tho.

This adds a new market that adds consumables worthy enough to buy, risky enough so that you have to spend good money to get your enchanted weapon to max level, and takes care of the excess by destroying the armor/weapons no one wants.

[origamikitsune]

@Leinn & @Rjain

I like the idea of crystal powder or something similar; but Rjain is right, anything that devalues HQ is overall detrimental. That said, if there were some tweaking to the NQ/HQ system (maybe not a complete re-write but serious re-balancing) then something could be done along this lines without overall devaluation. An example would be remove the ability to randomly HQ 1/2/3 with less than 100/200/300 Quality. This would reduce the overall HQ rate a bit. Add in crystal powder to provide a small boost and with proper balancing you can put the overall NQ/HQ ratio back where it is now. From there, just tweak up or down in accordance with the number of players/crafters and current economy as needed.

This is just one idea, and maybe not the best, but its a good example of one way to potentially decrease the NQ market glut without just shifting it to the HQ market. Ideas like the crystal powder should be given some serious debate because, as with everything in the MMO, properly balanced it won't detract from the game.

And Rjain, I whole heatedly agree with some sort of enchantment system. Not only would it be a great opportunity for crafters in general, but also provides a chance to introduce a new crafting class, if SE so desired. I'm sure both of us could come up with a complete set of abilities for such a class and get it relatively balanced in the current system (though I doubt they will add classes until after the new systems are in place).

[Jinko]

I really love this idea of fusing items together to produce a better one. +1 I like to the OP