Large pulls VS Small pulls... in leveling dungeons?

[KisaiTenshi]

However, as I started leveling what will become my alt class for 24-man (RDM), I started seeing the trend of tanks trying to make pulls akin to the ones “I” do on expert and 50/60 roulettes. This got especially bad at Bardam’s Mettle, when 2/3 of the time, unless I start spamming Vercure on the tank to help the healer, we would lose the tank in seconds, most often resulting a wipe, which I managed to prevent a few times because I had hate on the pack, so I’d kite a few seconds and when I was about to die, I’d use Lucid Dreaming to shift hate on someone, and by that time, either the healer or I had enough time to raise the tank and recover.

Don't "help" the healer. I know RDM seems like it has decent vercure (at least compared to Physick on Summoner), but you're pulling down your DPS, and the healer does have a handle on things. If the party dies because the tank bites off more than they can chew, or the healer decides to DPS instead of heal/blows all their cooldowns in stupid ways, it's not your job to save the party.

Because otherwise the RDM 'meta' becomes RDM has heals, so the RDM should heal when the healer gets in trouble or isn't healing.

We've had long arguments on the forums before about 'meta' , suffice it to say whenever someone pulls out the 'use all the tools in your toolbox' argument, this is where that argument backfires. A summoner's heals are super weak, but redmage's heals are nearly as good as Clemency on a tank (50% HP in some cases, which puts it above Cure 2) but a tank only gets to use their heal twice before their mana is gone.

I'm almost expecting SE to nerf Vercure, Clemecy and Psysick so that it's not more powerful than Cure 1, because it seems like this might create a 'meta' argument that DPS are expected to heal the party instead of themselves.

As for big and small pulls. Most content you can do at least a double pull and the healer can keep up, even if they're at the minimum ilevel. BUT keep in mind that the SB content pulls the "here's reinforcements" bit frequently so you are actually better off not doing big pulls unless you know the second pull doesn't have a reinforcements phase. If you would rather the healer have time to DPS, do smaller pulls, they can help kill the small groups of mobs quicker.

My preference, in order is this:
1) Paladin, WHM, and two ranged DPS of BRD/BLM = Double Pull is doable since the ranged DPS should be able to avoid stepping in AOE's
2) DRK, AST, and two melee DPS = Double pull if the healer is going to use Aspected Helios in Nocturnal Sect (Shields), if they use Diurnal Sect then they are going to use regen/heal. Shields are always better than regen effects because the shields will also prevent knockback, and tend to allow "stepping in AOE"'s without dying to them. The regen effects tend to be better for situations where multiple party-wide damage/stun/fetter's happen.

If you've paid attention to the "tales from the duty finder" or various threads on the healer or tank forum you'll find that the trend is that tanks are too squishy to do big pulls in the level 60+ content. From my own experience only about 1 in 10 tanks aren't squishy. If you're a DPS and trying to help the healer, you're not killing the baddies, and thus the the healer and tank will run out of CD's and mana sooner.

I have noticed occasionally during some runs that a big pull takes a REALLY LONG TIME to die, and that is a clear indicator that the tank has pulled too much, or the DPS is trying to help "heal" instead of DPS'ing, or that the DPS simply aren't hitting hard enough.

[Evaddaragon]

Don't "help" the healer. I know RDM seems like it has decent vercure (at least compared to Physick on Summoner), but you're pulling down your DPS, and the healer does have a handle on things. If the party dies because the tank bites off more than they can chew, or the healer decides to DPS instead of heal/blows all their cooldowns in stupid ways, it's not your job to save the party.

Oh, I agree entirely that it's not my job to save the party. Where I disagree with you, is in the fact I rather NOT wipe.

As my main is PLD, you are wrong on one thing. With the level 64 trait "Divine Magic Mastery", PLDs can cast more than two Clemencies before running out (actually, it's possible to cast five of them), and they regenerate MP quite fast thanks to the Goring Blade and Royal Authority combos, too. But that's still nowhere near as good as a dualcasted Vercure. I'll agree entirely that neither are healers, however.

In either cases, though, I've stumbled upon some healers where, had I done what you suggest, a wipe on a boss when it's almost dead could've happened. And I'm sorry to say, but I prefer winning clutch and botchy than redoing the fight just to make a point and make my healer "git gud". Granted, on an actual raiding static, that would been entirely different.

[YitharV2]

I feel like all these complaints on Str gear complaints are due to misconceptions or getting bad tanks that would probably die anyway even with vit gear. A proper tank using Str gear should be able to handle larger pulls more easily simply by the virtue of things die faster. I have been using str gear when running with friends and they don't find it harder to heal me, sometimes they find it easier (due to my soul eaters and abyssal drains hitting harder and thus restoring more HP). Unless you are waiting for the tank to drop rather low before you heal them (which I admit is a valid strategy to maximize healer dps windows) and you like that extra HP so you can spend more time dps'ing (again, valid argument), there shouldn't that much difference healing a str tank and a vit tank in dungeons, if they are properly using cooldowns.

Cooldown rotations are a must when doing these large pulls. Knowing your party's damage and figuring if they are capable of downing the mobs within your cooldown rotation is vital. There is no excuse for not actively using your cooldowns. If a tank is doing these large pulls, and they aren't properly using their cooldowns, call them out on it (Str or Vit).

Not every str tank is someone who only cares about big numbers or is a sheep that follows the meta. Some of us actually knows how to properly play as a tank wearing str accessories and can make the pros outweigh the cons.

I'd like to apologize for my earlier comment. I totally forgot that DRK had a way to restore their HP. I'm used to playing Warrior, and with the loss of Bloodbath, more damage doesn't help that much on trash packs in terms of survivability. I mean, they still do have Storm's Path and Inner Beast, but I wouldn't say the HP healed is that significant compared to Bloodbath. If WARs still had Bloodbath, I'd definitely be for STR accessories while tanking trash though. I think the extra tank DPS could help, but it also depends on DPS doing their AoEs.

I'm also not necessarily against the STR meta. I just think it's somewhat questionable on trash. What I usually do is wait until the tank's HP gets to 50% to maximize my healer DPS. But when a tank pulls multiple packs, I have to spam heals and it's harder to get Holy spam off. I'm usually running with a DRK from my FC. He's currently wearing Fending accessories. Hmm, I'm not actually sure why he's not wearing STR accessories. I think he himself is probably aware of how hard trash hits even with Grit up. IIRC I think in EX roulette he pulls two packs at a time?

[Yahallo]

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I think 2 packs is pretty standard in Ex at the moment. Possible to handle more, but you need to make sure everyone is up for it.

As for your Drk, I mean some tanks are just more comfortable with higher HP. The higher HP can have a bit of a psychological effect that makes them feel more at ease and focused. Some people come from other MMO's where tanks don't necessary have a DPS meta so it may be what they are used to. It is technically the intended play style so there is nothing wrong with it. It is likely more of a comfort thing if I had to guess; of course, even an educated guess is still only a guess. Different play styles for different people.

[BigRed5392]

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never talk down to a person who is being a team player. rdm cures hit hard, and if it helps tank live, then more power to them. healers get mocked fir "not using their full kit" why do the same to a rdm that goes above and beyond.