Large pulls VS Small pulls... in leveling dungeons?

[Nikolas]

I pull each mob as they come in the leveling and the 70 dungeons. Nice and steady. I really don't like it when it takes three times longer to kill multiple mobs than it does to kill them one group at a time. Also, dead. Don't like being dead.

[Rysir]

I do small pulls nowadays since Im sure healers love it when 2 or 3 monsters get a direct hit crit on me at once and eat my hp so I just do small pulls unless its just 2 mobs then I'll more likely add more to it.

Mega pulls are terrifying now and its so risky with direct hit in the mix.

[Shurrikhan]

With a competent tank and (especially non-SCH) healer, large pulls are not a problem whatsoever in SB leveling dungeons.

[Hikuras]

Except "STR meta" isn't that relevant to this topic. "Speedrunning meta" isn't the same thing. I'm pretty sure tanks running with VIT accessories are still getting wrecked for speedrunning leveling dungeons. Any tank just wearing STR accessories while pulling everything in leveling dungeons is either someone who just cares about big numbers and doesn't care about the healer and/or a sheep who follows the meta blindly, considering how hard trash hits. Honestly though, it was really stupid for SE to change something that was working, for a tangential reason (brink of death).

If SE really wants people to stop speed running all they need to do is put gates between each pack of mobs.

Well either way the change they made I feel is the best change. And it still means people need to wake up and actually change instead of doing the same thing hoping it'll work this time when it will never work the same again.

[Sandpark]

I'd take it further and add a trait called Brittle.

When being hit by more than 4 enemies at once, defense and vitality decrease significantly for x amount of seconds. Casting DPS get their AoE doing less damage versus more enemies. Should work in reverse.

[SuperZay]

3 mobs will die as fast as 6 mobs if DPS use their AOE skills. No point to drag the dungeon twice longer.

[Aomine1992]

If I have the AOE DPS available and the healer is OK with it, I'll usually do double packs in SB dungeons. If the healer is uncomfortable / new or we don't have the DPS, I'll stick to single packs.

Yea as a healer if I see like a SMN/BLM/SAM I always tell the tank to pull as much as they want lol but any other class I'm a little weary

[Annah]

Oh, no, please do not turn this into another "STR Meta" topic. Hahaha.

lol :P i wont haha

[Ametrine]

This is a bit of a sore subjectvas I got my second kick ever in this game because my level 64 AST didn't have the spell-speed and power to carry a DRK that was trying to pull everything in Shisui of all places.

The thing is, after his first, I assume, kick attempt failed (he hovered at the entrace silently for a while), he pulled small up until the first boss, and we were fine. He never put up Grit, but maintained Darkside. But, as soon as he could big pull again, same story as before and kick. Ugh!

The whole Speed Runner meta hit high gear with the initial release of Soldiery and Brayflox Longstop HM. It was quickly discovered and spread that it was possible to run the place in under 15 minutes if you can coordinate mass pulls. Suddenly everyone could very easily cap tomes as it was less of a time sink.


Fastforward to now, and it looks like SE is forcing a hard change on that. Tome gear is cheaper, dungeon trash hits harder.

I really hope tanks adjust.

[KisaiTenshi]

However, as I started leveling what will become my alt class for 24-man (RDM), I started seeing the trend of tanks trying to make pulls akin to the ones “I” do on expert and 50/60 roulettes. This got especially bad at Bardam’s Mettle, when 2/3 of the time, unless I start spamming Vercure on the tank to help the healer, we would lose the tank in seconds, most often resulting a wipe, which I managed to prevent a few times because I had hate on the pack, so I’d kite a few seconds and when I was about to die, I’d use Lucid Dreaming to shift hate on someone, and by that time, either the healer or I had enough time to raise the tank and recover.

Don't "help" the healer. I know RDM seems like it has decent vercure (at least compared to Physick on Summoner), but you're pulling down your DPS, and the healer does have a handle on things. If the party dies because the tank bites off more than they can chew, or the healer decides to DPS instead of heal/blows all their cooldowns in stupid ways, it's not your job to save the party.

Because otherwise the RDM 'meta' becomes RDM has heals, so the RDM should heal when the healer gets in trouble or isn't healing.

We've had long arguments on the forums before about 'meta' , suffice it to say whenever someone pulls out the 'use all the tools in your toolbox' argument, this is where that argument backfires. A summoner's heals are super weak, but redmage's heals are nearly as good as Clemency on a tank (50% HP in some cases, which puts it above Cure 2) but a tank only gets to use their heal twice before their mana is gone.

I'm almost expecting SE to nerf Vercure, Clemecy and Psysick so that it's not more powerful than Cure 1, because it seems like this might create a 'meta' argument that DPS are expected to heal the party instead of themselves.

As for big and small pulls. Most content you can do at least a double pull and the healer can keep up, even if they're at the minimum ilevel. BUT keep in mind that the SB content pulls the "here's reinforcements" bit frequently so you are actually better off not doing big pulls unless you know the second pull doesn't have a reinforcements phase. If you would rather the healer have time to DPS, do smaller pulls, they can help kill the small groups of mobs quicker.

My preference, in order is this:
1) Paladin, WHM, and two ranged DPS of BRD/BLM = Double Pull is doable since the ranged DPS should be able to avoid stepping in AOE's
2) DRK, AST, and two melee DPS = Double pull if the healer is going to use Aspected Helios in Nocturnal Sect (Shields), if they use Diurnal Sect then they are going to use regen/heal. Shields are always better than regen effects because the shields will also prevent knockback, and tend to allow "stepping in AOE"'s without dying to them. The regen effects tend to be better for situations where multiple party-wide damage/stun/fetter's happen.

If you've paid attention to the "tales from the duty finder" or various threads on the healer or tank forum you'll find that the trend is that tanks are too squishy to do big pulls in the level 60+ content. From my own experience only about 1 in 10 tanks aren't squishy. If you're a DPS and trying to help the healer, you're not killing the baddies, and thus the the healer and tank will run out of CD's and mana sooner.

I have noticed occasionally during some runs that a big pull takes a REALLY LONG TIME to die, and that is a clear indicator that the tank has pulled too much, or the DPS is trying to help "heal" instead of DPS'ing, or that the DPS simply aren't hitting hard enough.