Objectively, The Royal Managerie Will Be Nerfed

[YitharV2]

The fact is, overgeared characters carrying along "bad" players has been a major issue brought up again and again on these forums verses properly encouraging players to get those skills. Practice, get better, you got this, good job!

I think it's a problem in any MMO. Ideally, I think everyone has the ability to reach a decent level of gameplay. But the problem is players have to want to get better. That's why I'm leaning towards the side of giving players the ability to carry, because you're basically rolling a die when you queue using DF.

[aesteval]

Once more people become better geared as time goes on, the fight will become more trivial.

I want to be able to pug in with a group of bonus for the trial and be able to learn and clear the fight within the hour allocated. The problem with "overgearing" the fight is that further gearing options are locked behind clearing this trial. Higher geared players shouldn't be a requirement and there will be no overgearing for the bonus players until Verity is phased out and the gear is acquired via hunt seals. I supported the eventual overgearing plus echo argument for Final Steps of Faith and I still support that. But I 100% reject the overgearing argument when the only way to overgear the fight is locked behind the fight. Not having access to the tome vendor was a poor design decision on the part of the devs. And I hate actually arguing in favor of a nerf, but I think they messed up the timing of this fight in this case - it's too soon in the expansion.

[Toothie-Cat]

just finished the game a minute ago, it was hard probably failed like 15 times, tried on 3 groups, finally get it done on the 3rd group

- need to lower the difficulty just a bit but make sure it wont ruin the experience
- damage is too much for undergeared new/casual players just like myself who basically just doing DF to save time grouping with some random people most of the time they are just a bunch of newbies too.

[Valkyrie_Lenneth]

just finished the game a minute ago, it was hard probably failed like 15 times, tried on 3 groups, finally get it done on the 3rd group

- need to lower the difficulty just a bit but make sure it wont ruin the experience
- damage is too much for undergeared new/casual players just like myself who basically just doing DF to save time grouping with some random people most of the time they are just a bunch of newbies too.

Did you do your 70 job quest? Cuz it gives you i290 gear/weapon. They make it impossible to be undergeared in that fight lol. Maybe they need to make it a prereq to doing the final dungeon, having done your lvl 70 quest

I have yet to see it take more than 2 wipes in DF.

[aesteval]

That's the point of the carry. That one new player can spend the entire fight dead and still get through it easily if everyone else does the work. Their personal gear is entirely irrelevant.

The real trick is to make the rewards for helping a first timer through Menagerie worth a damn. Right now, even with the first time bonus, it's more efficient to do a single PvP match than to one-shot that fight with a decent group.

MSQ shouldn't require a carry to make it through (honestly, this fight doesn't require a carry for people to make it through, but it can only take so many mistakes before everything crashes and burns - the healer check involved might be a bit much at the moment.) Being carried doesn't help players become better.

Otherwise, I agree that there's a lack of incentive to encourage players to stick around and teach and aid in the clear.

[Ametrine]

yeah you still don't get it.

it's ok tho

I apparently don't.

My stance: I think we should take the time to teach and learn, but also give players overgearing options for themselves to have multible means of improvement. Carrying without constructively aiding bad players improve just broadens skill gap.

Your stance (as I understand it): We definitely should help explain stuff, but not being okay with simply carrying struggling, undergeared, and/or underskilled players makes you an asshole.

I think that's contradictory and an unfortunate take. "I took the time to learn the in-and-outs of this fight to beat it, I feel good," and "I struggled here so I put in extra time grinding better gear to help boost my stats to give me an edge and beat it, and I feel good."

That's what I'm saying we should be able to do. We can't do either if people are dropping out from frustration and gear grinding is locked behind it.

[aesteval]

I have mixed opinions on this. It trains you on the fundamentals used for the Primals, and I think it does it well. On the other hand, I know a number of people who will never clear it without being carried. So yes, the suggestion that it gates main story quest content is a valid one.

But, it will end up in Duty Finder eventually, and will have a Tomestone reward for having more geared people carry the less geared people, so... I dunno. It could receive a nerf, but I think other systems in the game address the difficulty concerns. Those will more ability will get to new content faster, which creates the skill tiers the better players seem to want, while still letting everyone see all the MSQ content once it hits Duty Finder. Nothing really out of place, from my perspective.

If it were only my skills that I had to rely on to clear I'd be just fine. Even if I failed: at least it's all on me. But there are 8 players in party. You're at the whim of everyone else in there as well.

[Powercow]

I want to be able to pug in with a group of bonus for the trial and be able to learn and clear the fight within the hour allocated.

Well I mean, you can. Most people did. The fight's entirely possible to do in 290 left / leveling right side gear. I know this because for the first week that was pretty much the way you did it.

Being carried doesn't help players become better.

Having no challenges along the way doesn't either. Sometimes bad players need a bit of encouragement to get better.

Otherwise, I agree that there's a lack of incentive to encourage players to stick around and teach and aid in the clear.

This has been a recurring problem; the first time bonus for trials is really small and piddly. If it were, say, 100 Verity and at a point when most of us are grinding out tomes like mad for our relic weapon, you betcha people would jump at the opportunity to join in.

[aesteval]

Well I mean, you can. Most people did. The fight's entirely possible to do in 290 left / leveling

Part of the possibility of pugging it also depends on when you do it. It's easier to do earlier after release, but the number of traps seems to increase as you move along. You queue in and it seems like people are dying to unavoidable damage and later on, in complete hindsight, you learn that the WHM of the party NEVER cast Medica to help heal up for / from the unavoidable damage. Sorry, just a bit salty. I'm also ... how do you not use Medica? I'm not sure how or if you can actually fix that.

It'd be really great if the fight were side content.

[Clawbriar]

Actually managed to do this at long last since my last post.

Died simply to being in the wrong place at the wrong time for Tidal Wave -- at 4%. Still managed to clear it with 6 out of 8 alive, the first time, in Duty Finder. None of the mechanics were anything I've never seen before, unlike the Steps of Faith, so there's no excuse there. Consider the content doesn't need nerfing, you just need buffing.