BLM needs some love and RDM needs a nerf

[EllieShadeflare]

TBH if you think RDM is just fine where it is then you are completely wrong.
BLM Fire4/Bliz4 pot 260 and RDM valaero/thunder plus proc stone either fire or jolt2 is 300+270 (plus proc is 50% chance)

You... don't understand how Astral Fire works, do you? And I'm guessing you never use Thundercloud?

[PrismaticDaybreak]

TBH if you think RDM is just fine where it is then you are completely wrong.
BLM Fire4/Bliz4 pot 260 and RDM valaero/thunder plus proc stone either fire or jolt2 is 300+270 (plus proc is 50% chance)
even BLM have leylines that reduce spell casting time it still DOESN'T match the DPS where the RDM is going.
I think they need to reduce the RDM pot to 240 and 260 level (because the dual casting) then we can talk again or simply reduce the proc chance from 50% to 30%.
Although RDM playstyle is right at it should be that's true.
Also Scatter is good enough as it should be.

They tried it at 30% while it was still in development, obviously changed since the mana gauge would charge way too slow. Your math is wrong, jolt 2 is only 240 potency. If you think RDM playstyle is fine now, then you cannot change the proc rate of Stone/Fire since then it would slow way down between burst phases. Don't forget BLM also has a constant 5% magic damage buff, if we speak purely in terms of potency, the two Fire 4's fired off in the same time as Jolt 2 and Aero/Thunder ends up at 546, slightly ahead of RDM.

[Symon17]

TBH if you think RDM is just fine where it is then you are completely wrong.
BLM Fire4/Bliz4 pot 260 and RDM valaero/thunder plus proc stone either fire or jolt2 is 300+270 (plus proc is 50% chance)
even BLM have leylines that reduce spell casting time it still DOESN'T match the DPS where the RDM is going.
I think they need to reduce the RDM pot to 240 and 260 level (because the dual casting) then we can talk again or simply reduce the proc chance from 50% to 30%.
Although RDM playstyle is right at it should be that's true.
Also Scatter is good enough as it should be.

It doesn't make sense to pick two random spells from each job's roster and compare potency. A job's potential damage is determined by it's entire kit being used together optimally. Otherwise we could say "Warrior's fell cleave does 500 potency, and it can do it five times in a row! It's not fair to mages! Nerf it!"

[EllieShadeflare]

It doesn't make sense to pick two random spells from each job's roster and compare potency. A job's potential damage is determined by it's entire kit being used together optimally. Otherwise we could say "Warrior's fell cleave does 500 potency, and it can do it five times in a row! It's not fair to mages! Nerf it!"

Techincally, Warrior's Fell Cleave made BLACK MAGE look unfair, due to the way Astral Fire works with potency. You can't trust the potency given by the tooltip, since they're "base" potencies.

Back in HW (and maybe still now), Astral Fire affects damage like this:

1 stack: 40% increased damage (1.4x)
2 stacks: 60% increased damage (1.6x)
3 stacks: 80% increased damage (1.8x)

And old Fire IV was its base potency of 280. This meant our base, bread and butter attack spell was 504 (529after Enochian) potency when all things were said and done, equivalent to an OFF COOLDOWN NUKE.

Fire IV's potency nerf looks a little bad, now at 468 (though technically 491 after you remember Enochian is a thing), but no less formidable. Plenty to catch up with the 570 potency per Dualcast, though we can put out 468 per cast without waiting 2.3-2.5s for recast afterward.

[Psycofang]

You... don't understand how Astral Fire works, do you? And I'm guessing you never use Thundercloud?

481potency per (at current) 2.73s vs 270+300 in 1.87s + recast.

Thunder 3 is 340 in 24s vs fleche is 420 per 25s
-Thundercloud procs are random and should never be applied to static numbers otherwise we have to start using luck in metric measurements.
But anyway 340+340 (at + 24s) so long as tc proc has time to run its course its 720p

Corte is 300 per 45s

420+300 is 720p

RDM can match a thunder cloud proc at optimal usage every 50 seconds.

Only thing RDM doesnt have a true answer for is foul (685p) vs RDMs holy/flare(550-605p (buffed)) not counting the full buffed and unbuffed combo with fleche and corte weaved.

Foul literally carries blm static dps but its still falling behind due to lack of avaliable speed.

[Symon17]

Techincally, Warrior's Fell Cleave made BLACK MAGE look unfair, due to the way Astral Fire works with potency. You can't trust the potency given by the tooltip, since they're "base" potencies.

Back in HW (and maybe still now), Astral Fire affects damage like this:

1 stack: 40% increased damage (1.4x)
2 stacks: 60% increased damage (1.6x)
3 stacks: 80% increased damage (1.8x)

Oh I know! I used to main BLM. I just thought getting into it would complicate the point.

[Psycofang]

240 potency. If you think RDM playstyle is fine now, then you cannot change the proc rate of Stone/Fire since then it would slow way down between burst phases. Don't forget BLM also has a constant 5% magic damage buff, if we speak purely in terms of potency, the two Fire 4's fired off in the same time as Jolt 2 and Aero/Thunder ends up at 546, slightly ahead of RDM.

Even if we dont use verfire/aero (270p)

But jolt 2 instead is still 240+300 on a bad streak is still 540p which is stronger than 1 f4 and casted under the time it takes to cast a fire 4..

[PrismaticDaybreak]

Even if we dont use verfire/aero (270p)

But jolt 2 instead is still 240+300 on a bad streak is still 540p which is stronger than 1 f4 and casted under the time it takes to cast a fire 4..

Honestly I'm not particularly sure why they reduced the damage of F4 and B4 either way considering they're supposed to be the low/no utility damage dealer. Seems like a hasty decision based off of the fact that enochian is essentially permanent as long as the BLM is decent at the job.

[EllieShadeflare]

snip

I'll address each point.

491potency per (at current) 2.73s vs 270+300 in 1.87s + recast.

When you put it like that, sure, it looks impressive for RDM, but remember, we get two casts every time you recast, due to it being a slight wait, as you trade consistency + mechanics for build up and big bursts. Black Mages can have a second Fire IV on the way, whilst Red Mages still wait to complete their spell.

Thunder 3 is 340 in 24s vs fleche is 420 per 25s
-Thundercloud procs are random and should never be applied to static numbers otherwise we have to start using luck in metric measurements.
But anyway 340+340 (at + 24s) so long as tc proc has time to run its course its 720p
Corte is 300 per 45s

420+300 is 720p

RDM can match a thunder cloud proc at optimal usage every 50 seconds.

Okay, but your number for Thundercloud is entirely off, so that disqualifies your entire argument. The initial potency of Thunder III is 70. And tics occur every 3 seconds, causing a whopping 320 potency, so it's actually 390 potency when it proc's. 409.5 after you apply Enochian (which why aren't you?). While the proc chance is random, at 10% per tic, it's still a rather high chance, plus anyone worth their salt launches Thunder III using Sharpcast, for a confirmed Thundercloud, especially now that the Fire sharpcast meta is gone. This makes this more like 1139 (after both Thunderclouds, plus the second effect's full dot) instead of 720 like you claim.

Only thing RDM doesnt have a true answer for is foul (685p) vs RDMs holy/flare(550-605p (buffed)) not counting the full buffed and unbuffed combo with fleche and corte weaved.

Foul being an AoE and a 30s cooldown, versus that massive burst combo that Red Mage gets. Again, you get big tantrums of burst, versus the consistent death that BLM brings.

Foul literally carries blm static dps but its still falling behind due to lack of avaliable speed

BLM is just a consistent caster, but equally equipped RDMs and BLMs will make the same DPS, because of the RDM's tantrums and BLM's consistency.

SMNs are somehow more consistent than Black Mages, but also more tantrummy than RDM, so they still have good potential too.

[Psycofang]

Yeah i was coming to correct thunder yes its 409 but to beat the Rdm equivalent requires luck and has 0 place in static discussion.

Also sharp casting t3 is situational as it cannot be applied at a constant unlike fleche corte which are instant and can be applied almost anywhere.

Also i feel your recast argument is flawed

BLM has a second fire 4 on the way .23s (or at current my recast us 2.3 but cast is 2.73 soim actually .43 over the gcd) past the global whereas RDM is directly on it since the cast is directly front loaded like a melee attack.

This means rdm can pump out 240+300 and 270+300 in 1.87 + 2.3 bs blm 2.73 + 2.73


Rdm is 4.17s vs blm 5.46