Enthusiastic Tanks

[Riyshn]

Careful about power trips. Tanks can also play this game, you can either heal what the tank pulls or let him wipe the party until kicked.

Further, you don't actually need a healer to do expert. They can hold you there if they want to. That's what gets me. If I pull 1 group at a time, I don't need the healer at all. Healers are a waste of a slot if the pulls aren't big, esp if they don't dps

And I'm confidant to heal most dungeons without a tank. That said, I don't mean to imply that there should only ever be single pulls, but please keep them sane, especially in leveling dungeons. Doma Castle for example. Pulling all the way to the first wall, so we have the first pack of 3 soldiers and the second pack of all the spiderbots? Yeah, please do that one. After that though, please do at least the colossus on it's own; it has a tendency to turn and instagib people if you lose track of it's aggro for even a second. So many times I get tanks who pull that entire section (Colossus, soldiers, mechs), and then not only are they losing aggro on everything because DPS AoE > Tank AoE right now, but they're taking more damage than I'm actually capable of healing in a GCD. When I have to Dissipate so I can chain 6 Lustrates on you in a row just to keep you alive on a trash pull, something is wrong.

[Leigaon]

It's a mentality from the older tanks, and it's what I've come to deal with trying to take up tanking in 4.0 coming from being a healer.

The world hits harder now, and there is a need to slow down if the party can't manage it. We're all one assembly line, each one has something that needs to be done so the other can do their job or more.

I don't wear STR accessories. I've gotten through most of the second phase in Susano and have done the EX trials. I rarely run into TP / Enmity issues, and if I do I have no problem asking for a Goad. Since it's a co-op game it shouldn't be an issue.

As I see more veteran tanks complain I'm realizing that they're stuck to the older ways without trying to figure out how to do things and make them better. Rather they want to go back to being DPS that can take a hit. That's why they praise PLD so much it seems. "I can holy spam! and not be a white mage!" I did a few as PLD b/c I need to level it for my retainer. I have yet to get to the nuking but so far it feels like the same PLD just I can't use my lv.52 ability every 30s.

When I have to Dissipate so I can chain 6 Lustrates on you in a row just to keep you alive on a trash pull, something is wrong.

Exactly, there's no reason as a healer you should need to do something like that. I'm guilty of it still time to time. I'll look at my HP and wonder "why is my HP going down so much?" well it's either because the fights dragged on way too long due to DPS / me pulling too much, I'm not using CD's, Healer isn't geared. Either way we aren't helping each other. These are all just general mistakes a person makes, myself included. I go "Rampart is up" ..well put that on, help the healer out. Unchain that Inner Beast and throw Infuriate back out there, go through my absorb combo more.

We are so used to doing things on our own that the most difficult part is now working as a team. I'm going back to healing now to level up SCH and WHM, selfish behavior is destroying the runs. But it's a mentality enforced by the previous patches.

[winsock]

And I'm confidant to heal most dungeons without a tank. That said, I don't mean to imply that there should only ever be single pulls, but please keep them sane, especially in leveling dungeons. Doma Castle for example. Pulling all the way to the first wall, so we have the first pack of 3 soldiers and the second pack of all the spiderbots? Yeah, please do that one. After that though, please do at least the colossus on it's own; it has a tendency to turn and instagib people if you lose track of it's aggro for even a second. So many times I get tanks who pull that entire section (Colossus, soldiers, mechs), and then not only are they losing aggro on everything because DPS AoE > Tank AoE right now, but they're taking more damage than I'm actually capable of healing in a GCD. When I have to Dissipate so I can chain 6 Lustrates on you in a row just to keep you alive on a trash pull, something is wrong.

Ultimately, i think we're just going to need to agree to disagree, as we are pretty far apart on premise, but for the sake of posting opinions on a discussion forum:
Firstly, I must say that aggro isnt really relevant to discussion, you can have aggro problems when pulling anything over 1 group. Sometimes its a bad tank, but they wont get better if they dont try. Other times its a bad dps who decides they want to go full burst during the pull instead of after the pull.

Other than that though, i think we just look at it with differing perspectives. I do both pulls you mention above, and usually end up using HG during the second pull along with some requiescat+conva+clemency spam, sometimes potions, etc. To me, I view this like: I got these awesome abilities at my disposal like Hallowed Ground and I might as well make good use of them. If I see a SCH pull out Dissipate to make something happen, I will view that SCH as skilled, say something like "good heals man!" in chat, and comm them at the end, because not every SCH can/will do that. When I am healing, I appreciate the being able to throw down my cooldowns (provided the tank is actually using their cds), it can get pretty boring otherwise. It a great feeling when you queue with a party of strangers, and have a quick+smooth run with strong pulls, heals, and dps.

[Feidam]

Snip.

Coming from a scholar forcing us to use dissipation is not a good thing. If we have to burn it too fast we are left without a lot for close to 40secs. It's not something I like to have to do and is usually only a last ditch effort to salvage the situation. Especially since fey union and Dissipation are at odds with each other.

[Junyroku]

As a tank main I like doing big pulls because I want to just go in a dungeon beat it quick and jump into another one. After my first pull I can usually tell how our dos is and how our healer is. If any of the heals or dps is lacking I switch to smaller pulls. I also use both vit and str sets. vit got big pulls and str for bosses. Right now with str accessories I'm pulling about 3k dps. A few nights ago I ran into this awesome white mage. I pulled 3 groups in a lv 70 dungeon and the white mage was able to do over 4k dps while keeping me alive.

Same here, but i never try those 290 accesories

[lujate]

I much prefer aggressive tanks that push themselves and the group. I'm not going to find the limit of what I can handle unless I go looking for it. Occasionally, that leads to wipes; so what? Fail better next time and all that...

While I don't like doing an entire run low on Mana and CD's because the tank is an OMG hurry, there is some satisfaction in pulling it off.

[Gun-Cat]

Warriors that pull dungeons and don't use cds, DRK that stand in AoE to "regain mana", PLD that eat Susan Ex tankbuster without Sword Oath because muh dps...

Seen it all, healed it all. I am working with the cards I have been dealt. Sometimes things go smooth, sometimes you have to heal. Complaining won't change a thing, neither will throwing a hissy fit and letting people die.

[Mikazuki_Aura]

I've had an Astro who thought he was a DPS when I pulled a mere 7 mobs in an easy lvl 50 dungeon (resulting a wipe because I received no heals at all for a 10 second period). The Samurai then demanded I use Shield Oath against a 3-mob pull after I plain gave up on that AST, and did mobs 3 at a time with SwO, just because he doesn't know how to attack marked targets in numerical order and kept pulling aggro to himself.

I've also been in dungeons where a tank and healer queued together, and we could AoE down a 28-mob pull without the tank ever going below 80% HP, with the tank trusting my Goad enough to use exclusively AoE tactics.

And healed dungeons where the tank was crap and as the healer, I was the actual one holding all the aggro.

And tanked a dungeon in a NIN. That one was painful. It's not every day I can take aggro off a tank's primary target.

Point is, there are people that can play really well, and people that really shouldn't have access to keyboards. Some of the larger pullers are fine since they oGCD properly, know mechanics, and position well. Some of the smaller pullers are undergeared, and are a pain to keep alive even when dealing with a really small number of mobs. Going 'tanks should never pull large groups' is nonsensical because some tanks really can handle them, and with AoE specced DPS members can clear content more than twice as quickly that way. Going 'tanks should always pull large numbers' leads to far more wipes than necessary. And whoever who thought Sword Oath should never be used in a dungeon really needs to try using it for once, where some content is so easy a tank can solo a boss based on natural regen alone after the rest of the party wipes to a mechanic they've never seen before. I plain don't ever voluntarily ShO if Regen overheals me by itself.

Dungeons are easy enough that it's not just about being in a hurry, some players will try to do stuff that pushes limits for the sake of pushing the limit, because otherwise the content is boringly stale. Can't comment on l70 dungeons yet of course, but the original post was never that specific on what content was being addressed.

[Feidam]

Large pull complaints really only apply to pug duty groups imo. However, they can absolutely work there too. They can just as easily be a nightmare. The problem is when the mentality of large pull or bust overrides any kind of common sense. If you want to large pull ask the group. Most don't always care one way or the other. Some prefer small others larger. Gear also plays a part. If you have crap gear do not run roughshod Rambo through the dungeon. Also if the healer or dps is new they too should be allowed at least one run with small pulls so you can easily see what mob does what. Then move on to faster runs. A little communication and education goes a very long way.

[Age_of_Oblivion]

I really don't understand those of you who are complaining about being a healbot in big pulls. You do realize what you queued up as, right?