Enthusiastic Tanks

[Age_of_Oblivion]

It's more about tanks overpulling and dying rather than about not wanting to heal. Party wipes are a waste of time.

That's reasonable, sure. But I don't think that it's fair to complain that healers have less time to DPS now.

[Feidam]

It's more about tanks overpulling and dying rather than about not wanting to heal. Party wipes are a waste of time.

This mainly.

[Feidam]

That's reasonable, sure. But I don't think that it's fair to complain that healers have less time to DPS now.

I don't see why they shouldn't complain if the reason they can't dps is because the tank dropped to dps stance during the pull. I mean why is the tank able to do this but the healer told to heal more! It goes both ways. However, having to heal more doesn't bother me in the slightest because with good management you can always get a dot or two off at a minimum even with bad tanks.

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

Objectively speaking, though, a tank that uses their dps stance is going to be better than a tank that camps in tank stance 24/7. I'm not sure I see what the issue is.

[Riyshn]

The issue is that while a tank in DPS stance does more damage than a tank in tank stance, large pulls in DPS stance tend to mean that the healer isn't doing any damage.

[MoroMurasaki]

Objectively speaking, though, a tank that uses their dps stance is going to be better than a tank that camps in tank stance 24/7. I'm not sure I see what the issue is.

In a large pull situation where AoE is important a tank's damage from DPS stance isn't going to outweigh the DPS lost from the healer having to heal him that much more, it will almost always be a net damage loss unless you're in a specific single target situation. Diffetent jobs can make a bit of difference overall but in general healers just put out much better AoE.

[Enla]

Thunda-
The last few clears I had of Susano were almost ruined by a Warrior who sat in Deliverance the entire time after the Sword Phase, including every single tank buster that came their way. Their DPS was abysmal in a group that was good enough to skip the last set of gaols, and had been doing that since well before they joined, and by the end both my co-healer and myself often found our mana reserves to be pitifully low due to the excessive amounts of babying we had to dole out to that one particular tank. We cleared due to the skill of the other players, but I would argue that the time spent needing to focus entirely on healing that one player meant not only that we healers were no longer contributing to the DPS as well which would have combined topped what the WAR was putting out. Overall it was a net loss. Workable, but way more stress inducing than not.

[winsock]

In a large pull situation where AoE is important a tank's damage from DPS stance isn't going to outweigh the DPS lost from the healer having to heal him that much more, it will almost always be a net damage loss unless you're in a specific single target situation. Diffetent jobs can make a bit of difference overall but in general healers just put out much better AoE.

Do you actually have numbers on this or are you just speculating?

Some stuff to consider:
* Tank stance can be dropped at any time, it doesn't have to stay down the entire pull.
* It has little to no impact with certain skills / effects like hallowed ground , AoE stuns, blind, etc
* Damage reduction suffers from diminishing returns. Ex: ShO is only worth about 12% of total dmg if sentinel is active.
* Item level

[Feidam]

Some stuff to consider:
* Tank stance can be dropped at any time, it doesn't have to stay down the entire pull.
* Damage reduction suffers from diminishing returns. Ex: ShO is only worth about 12% of total dmg if sentinel is active.
* Item level

12% is nothing to snuff at. All that damage adds up quickly. And to be honest once a tank switches to dps stance they rarely go back to def stance. They start in tank stance simply to grab hate, then switch and pretty much just expect a healer to deal with it. The question really is how much extra damage is that tank adding being in dps stance and how much extra could the healer add if he wasn't. This is assuming said healer isn't struggling to keep tank up. If the healer is struggling then a tank switching to dps stance is just being a jerk to the healer. Granted once everyone involved over gears this is somewhat a moot point.

[winsock]

snip.

I don't think it is fair to predict that a tank will not reactivate tank stance when theory crafting. For example, I could predict the healer just isn't going to DPS at all, and it would make the discussion a moot point.

Another example would be HW PLD, it was worth while to drop tank stance briefly for SoC. 12% loss was worth it. SB is new enough to where I don't have a data, so I was asking if he actually had numbers or if it was speculation