SMN...and SCH broken

[CecMiller]

Summoner is OP? where are you guys getting this from? Summoner is nowhere close to overpowered.

Overpowered is a class like redmage. It does better dps in any EX fight than summoner whilst having better mana mangement, better utility, lower skill ceiling/being less complex to play. Not to mention, if a summoner misses a move or dies, it suffers the most out of any dps class. Saying SUMMONER is overpowered is ludicrous and just shows that most of you on here have never played summoner to a high level or often enough to notice this.

[RLofOBFL]

According to the SSS dummy hp, SMN is the second highest dps behind SAM. And according to numbers SMN can do more than any class besides SAM. & SMN doesn't suffer more than RDM. SMN gets Aetherflow AND Lucid Dream. RDM only gets Lucid. It's OP in a sense that it has extremely high single target damage potential, gets resurrection and utility as well as high aoe damage.

[Fannah]

Summoners have been proven to have a better overall dps than Red mages. I believe Red mage easier than SMN to be optimized which is why we have high dmg red mages overall. And the thing is Red mage don't waste time to change their habits, they just get used to that new gameplay, instead of looking at what they've lost etc.
Don't look at the past, and focus on what you can do, and you'll see SMN have better dps than Red mages (at least lvl 70).

[Neophyte]

Can we just stop for a second and talk about how we can no longer heal our pets? wtf? As a sch it's not much of an issue.. just party member #5. But as smn you have no more options.
Also is it just me or are the pets being hit way more by boss mechanics compared to before? I end up just using swiftcast for raising my pet now Oo

SMN resets his pets hp every 2 minutes with Bahamut (in dungeons it's more than every 2 mins of fight time), which also resets emnity on them (so RIP Titan tanking while playing serious anyway), and a SCH should use Dissipation (at least before his pet dies, if not regulary in their rotation).

[CecMiller]

According to the SSS dummy hp, SMN is the second highest dps behind SAM. And according to numbers SMN can do more than any class besides SAM. & SMN doesn't suffer more than RDM. SMN gets Aetherflow AND Lucid Dream. RDM only gets Lucid. It's OP in a sense that it has extremely high single target damage potential, gets resurrection and utility as well as high aoe damage.

To the above:

Who cares about a dummy parse? Have you even played Summoner? My friend has parsed on a dummy for 10 minutes as RDM and maintained 4k+ dps. In actual fights is where the dps matters and there you will consistently find RDM at pole position. The ONLY time RDM needs mana is because they've been resurrecting. Please don't comment on mana management when you're not even aware of how mana hungry the summoner class is. With Lucid Dreaming and Aetherflow, summoner cannot maintain 4k+ dps on an EX fight without outside buffs. You guys keep looking at these dummy parses and think summoner is a god. When you look at an extended fight like any EX fight, you find summoner nowhere close to 2nd place. RDM is king in the current EX fights. I know summoner very well from using it as my main class in creator savage. To say summoner is overpowered is ludicrous. In a dummy parse, Summoner has enough mana for 2 minutes that they do not go out of mana from spamming ruin 3 and have to resort to ruin 1. This is not true in fights which are ABOVE 2 minutes.

Summoners have been proven to have a better overall dps than Red mages. I believe Red mage easier than SMN to be optimized which is why we have high dmg red mages overall. And the thing is Red mage don't waste time to change their habits, they just get used to that new gameplay, instead of looking at what they've lost etc.
Don't look at the past, and focus on what you can do, and you'll see SMN have better dps than Red mages (at least lvl 70).

The whole problem with RDM is that its extremely easy to play compared to summoner whilst doing better dps. It has a very low skill ceiling. And as a summoner main, it didn't take me long to let go of my habbits. Even after looking at the new summoner at level 70, RDM is 100% doing more dps. I have no idea what kinda of poor dps players you've seen where a SMN is outdpsing the red mages in your parties.

[Neophyte]

Summoner is OP? where are you guys getting this from? Summoner is nowhere close to overpowered.

Overpowered is a class like redmage. It does better dps in any EX fight than summoner whilst having better mana mangement, better utility, lower skill ceiling/being less complex to play. Not to mention, if a summoner misses a move or dies, it suffers the most out of any dps class. Saying SUMMONER is overpowered is ludicrous and just shows that most of you on here have never played summoner to a high level or often enough to notice this.

Then don't press the wrong button, duh?
The possibility to lose an aetherflow stack is not high skill ceiling, saying so just shows that you have never played SMN on a high level. Because that's literally happening in one of 1000 fights once.
And yes, RDM has better MP Management, but beside vercures and rezzes they can't utilize a "more" on MP in any offensive way.

RDM suffers a lot more in Susano for missed GCDs because of stun or Goal (several hundred pot loss per GCD + no mp buildup-> delay in Rotation), while a good SMN will lose only pot 100 GCDs there, while pet and Dots are still up.

Also SMN has almost no delay in rotation when that happens , because SMN rotation is more "rotating" oGCDs, while using 4 different ruin skills depending on ressources/situation and his two Dots about every 2 minutes.

If you do everything right and your oGCDs are on CD, DoTs are up and you are not capped on MP you literally lose only about 200-300 pot for being stunned for 6s. How is that punishing?

[CecMiller]

Snip

https://www.fflogs.com/rankings/char...3/#partition=5

This is me on summoner. To say I don't know how to play the class at a high level is retarded.

"Then don't press the wrong button, duh"

I'm pointing out problems that other classes don't have to deal with in comparison to summoner. No other class has to deal with a massive dps drop or lockout due to missing one move. I don't usually miss my moves but A11S rings a bell when the tank pulls Cruise chaser too far at the last second so that your bane misses on EDD. And I'm no perfect player and I'm sure you're not either. Why does summoner have to deal with such a steep penalty and not the other classes? Further, not sure what players you've been playing with, but my buddies who can play RDM well always parse higher than me (4k+ dps) even when I maximize my summoner dps on EX Lakshimi.

Yeah RDM has better MP management and Utility and does more damage whilst being easier to play and having none of the downsides that summoner has. That is the entire problem with the new summoner (not to mention how clunky some of its abilities are). It is a more complex to play and has heavier penalties/more mana dependency all the while dealing less dps in fights and offering less utility. I've played summoner at 70 enough to know this. There is a reason why my SMN buddies have switched to RDM and its not because that class is weaker or the fact that its more "fun".

EDIT: Regarding your edits

So your argument is that since summoner can but their OGCD's on CD and have their dots up on Susano, that they're somehow better that RDM? That 6s doesn't close the gap between RDM and SMN's dps in that fight. My comments on summoner being punishing has everything to do with missing an aetherflow stack which sets you back minutes and makes your dps drop like a brick or dying which is even worse as it sets your bahamut behind 2+ minutes. Summoners suffer the most from any mistake they make is my point. It's not about whether I make those mistakes or not, it's about the severity of the dps loss due to any mistakes made which can be made by the average or good player once in a while.

The fact of the matter is, RDM is much easier to play and offers more to the team than a summoner all the while being able to dish out more dps. The people saying summoner is overpowered in this thread have no clue how summoner plays at 70 in EX fights.

[Neophyte]

https://www.fflogs.com/rankings/char...3/#partition=5

This is me on summoner. To say I don't know how to play the class at a high level is retarded.

So what? You just said the same thing generalizing about everyone not having the same opionion as you do.
Also nice padded echo numbers with 70% balance uptime. My epeen on standard-comp pre echo though is bigger than yours, therefore I'm right I guess.

To miss one in a dozen runs on Cruise chaser might happen, but on the other side it was easy to be top dps as SMN whenever that did not happen. I don't see the tragedy, after some time you have a feeling for the distance a bane can reach and you should also now the Optical Sight patterns were tanks usually go further away from middle.

Further, not sure what players you've been playing with, but my buddies who can play RDM well always parse higher than me (4k+ dps) even when I maximize my summoner dps on EX Lakshimi.

Not sure what you're talking about, because I was talking about Susano not Lakshmi.
And as said, an good RDM suffers a lot more than a good SMN in that fight, depending on stuns and mechanics.
While in Lakshmi indeed SMN suffers more, esp. if you are careful with DoTs and pet and your hard-hitting oGCDs in add phase.

I don't see the reason why completly missing an Aetherflow oGCD (which is very hard tbh if you play concentrated) and therefore screwing your dps is "higher skill sceiling" than screwing your dps as a RDM because of delayed GCDs because of mechanics.
The former is more punishing but happens less, less, less often than the latter.

Aaaaaalso... when you play as SMN together with another RDM you give him Magic damage up every Minute, while he gives you nothing in return.

[CecMiller]

So what? You just said the same thing generalizing about everyone not having the same opionion as you do.
Also nice padded echo numbers with 70% balance uptime. My epeen on standard-comp pre echo though is bigger than yours, therefore I'm right I guess.

Not sure what you're talking about, because I was talking about Susano not Lakshmi.
And as said, an good RDM suffers a lot more than a good SMN in that fight, depending on stuns and mechanics.

Absolutely bullshit. Where is my 70% balance uptime? I don't have padded numbers. Any thorough check on my parses would show you this. Check the A12S parse with 3k+ dps with no AST if you care that much. And I did generalize these people because half the people who commented on this thready saying summoner is overpowered doesn't even HAVE a level 70 summoner. Just look at the 2 people I quoted. Pre-echo I just re-subbed to the game when people had cleared creator savage and was new to summoner with < 250 ilvl. Good job at having higher parses pre-echo. The whole point is to show that I am a good summoner player. Not much else.

Reread my post and maybe you'd understand what I'm talking about. So what if an RDM gets stunned for 6s where they cant dps. And RDM is still going to be doing higher dps overall. What RDM's are you playing with that you're able to outdps them as SMN on Susano EX?


Edit:

Regarding your edits: So what if an RDM can't do much more besides curing and rezzing with their extra MP? Thats more than what a summoner can do as a summoner MUST be spamming Ruin 3 to have high dps and as a result, you will be tragically low mana most of the time except in the first 2 minutes of a fight. An RDM will not go oom while maintaining their 4k+ dps. A summoners dps will tank as they begin to ruin 1 spam instead of Ruin 3 spam. With the extra mana, RDM's can make use of mana shift if a healer so desires. Asking the same of a summoner just means your summoner will be doing even less dps than before.

To reiterate my original point:

RDM offers more utility, does more dps, is far easier to play, has better MP management than summoner and is less clunky. So to say summoner is overpowered is an injustice.

[Nerisu]

It's the reason why I decided to switch to RDM. SMN has good numbers but plays clunky. But hey, at least SMN is more fun in PVP compared to RDM.