SMN...and SCH broken

[Fyce]

How does the same statistic look on Laki?

Susano and Lakshmi are very similar in terms of numbers (not -actual- numbers, but ratio and positions). A few notes:
- Tanks: PLD is clearly ahead in Susano, but WAR is close on Laksmhi (but still behind PLD). DRK is far behind in Lakshmi (I don't really know why).
- Healers: consistant between Susano and Lakshmi (ie. SCH 1st, WHM close second, AST way behind but doesn't account for Balance).
- Melee: SAM is OP in both fights. DRG is complete trash.
- Ranged: BRD is far above MCH, while having more group utility. I don't even...
- Caster: RDM is above everyone else. SMN is the big looser, while being the hardest to play. Go figure.

[Neela]

Kinda true I personally don't care not being top dps but it's strange that easy ones got this amount and more complex ones are screwed... one way or another it won't stay like this - buffs and nerfs will come, like they always do ^^

[Brinzy]

Yep, buffs and nerfs will definitely come along. It's just bemusing that people really think SMN is overpowered in any vein.

[Neela]

At first they say it's crap like hell now they say it's op - not worth a discussion for now it's kinda okay - challenging and fun if you take a bit of effort into it, that's all what's matter at least for me ^^'

[CatStarPrime]

<eyes open wide>

Putting the pets on the party list so the Healers can see them easier... whoa.

But what would happen if you got a party that was, say, 2 tanks, 2 SCH, and 4 SMN? :yoiks:


I'm not seeing a problem with my DPS. Things die. I live. My TitanCarbuncle dies occasionally, but not all that often. And I still love love love dropping Deathflare on stuff, even though it ISN'T optimal DPS. Fa-WOOOOSH! BURN!!!

:laughing:

[Cupcakesu]

Summoner seems fine to me. Scholar feels like it's mechanically/conceptually on the right path, but they HEAVILY undertuned the numbers or tacked on unnecessary gates and negatives. It feels sort of like release-Astrologian. They had a goal in mind, overnerfed things to achieve that goal, and then left all of the new stuff too weak or restricted. For example, does the Fairy really need to be unable to move while executing Fey Union? Chain Stratagem lasts 15s and has a 2 minute CD, and thus might as well not even exist considering it's essentially just a crit chance increase. Excogitation is barely stronger than Lustrate, has the same Aetherflow cost, and will often do absolutely nothing because tanks don't often drop below 50% in duo-Healer situations. All of these issues can be fixed, but the ideas behind SCH's kit seem acceptable.

Or perhaps I'm just disillusioned by comparing it to WHM, which has a TERRIBLE concept and mechanic. (Note- WHM is actually better off than SCH and can perform better in content, but their new mechanics are simply trash and boring)

[Komaku]

Sigh even now after 4.06 summoner is still broken. Yeah, they gave us 10 more potency for Bio III and Miasma III BUT THAT WASNT THE PROBLEM! Ugh, the biggest and I mean the BIGGEST issue with summoner is how aetherflow is used now. It has a long cooldown and on top of that once you use the three charges you have your locked out of using it until you're done with dread wyrm trance, One of the easiest fixes they could do that would please us summoners would be to not lock us out of our aetherflow and reduce its cooldown just a little bit.

[Gumbercules]

I am in a weird place with SMN cuz I started to level it cuz of all the complaining, and i actually ended up enjoying the job. In HW I just got it to 60 and shelved it cuz I did not enjoy its class mechanics and synergy. That said alot of the complaints seem to be about "muh deeps" and since I am used to bard, I just see SMN as a dps with good damage and good group synergy (using my bard as an example that would be great group synergy with ok damage) Ironically one of the "insults" ive seen chucked at MMO class design is the "need" to make every class pull the same numbers some devs (wow cough wow) opt for, and imo FF 14 atm is doing a good job of creating group synergies around a "support" structure vs DPS. Issue is i guess that everyone just wants to be "big $%#^" DPS ing it :P

The people trying to convince me "balance" was a mess directed me to the FFLOGs site and that gives a pretty good correlation of performance to "class identity" in actual situations. Quite frankly the balancing is freakishly good if you go by the logs. ( i strongly advice you "look" before reacting to seeing them and make sure you are seeing the actual numbers not the percentiles alone)

[Ariomi]

I am in a weird place with SMN

Quite frankly the balancing is freakishly good if you go by the logs.

Freakishly good? Not quite. It took Buffing Summoner's Tri-Disater from 800 potency to 1000 potency for Summoner to get close to Red Mage.
The Balance is Better, after they buffed Summoner's dots by 20% but Summoner should be higher damage then red mage, or should have better buffs. Devotion being laughably bad.
Currently Summoner will only outdps a Red Mage when either A. There are multiple targets for the Summoner to attack, or B. There is an instance where the Red mage, is unable to attack whereas summoner can attack via dots, or pet. Example of this? Susano ex Lakshmi ex O1s and O2s. Red Mages outperform a Summoner in these circumstances. No reason to Bring a Summoner here, when Red Mage personally out damages a Summoner, and boosts raid damage more with Embolden.

In o3s, Summoner squeezes ahead of red mage because of Add fluff, (Literally like a group of Ninja's show up and an Iron Giant that Summoner's can fluff their numbers with deathflare/ahk morn.) Then also get a slight advantage when the party is forced to turn into different animals. Red Mage has no dots, and if a red mage isn't casting, they do effectively 0 damage. Summoner can apply dots and their pet attacks for the duration of that time, keeping more damage uptime on the boss. O3s has several mechanics, such as forced march where a red mage is doing 0 dps. And even then a Red Mage is boosting the overall raids dps with embolden which makes the dps difference, non existent.

This is obviously assuming that A. The summoner doesn't die. If a Red mage and a Summoner were to both die, the Red mage would have much higher dps with weakness then a Summoner would.

[ArcanoJones]

I have no problem with Summoner. They seem OP to me. He kills things faster than my Red Mage..and is a lot less squishy because of its pet.