SMN...and SCH broken

[CecMiller]

Snip

https://www.fflogs.com/rankings/char...3/#partition=5

This is me on summoner. To say I don't know how to play the class at a high level is retarded.

"Then don't press the wrong button, duh"

I'm pointing out problems that other classes don't have to deal with in comparison to summoner. No other class has to deal with a massive dps drop or lockout due to missing one move. I don't usually miss my moves but A11S rings a bell when the tank pulls Cruise chaser too far at the last second so that your bane misses on EDD. And I'm no perfect player and I'm sure you're not either. Why does summoner have to deal with such a steep penalty and not the other classes? Further, not sure what players you've been playing with, but my buddies who can play RDM well always parse higher than me (4k+ dps) even when I maximize my summoner dps on EX Lakshimi.

Yeah RDM has better MP management and Utility and does more damage whilst being easier to play and having none of the downsides that summoner has. That is the entire problem with the new summoner (not to mention how clunky some of its abilities are). It is a more complex to play and has heavier penalties/more mana dependency all the while dealing less dps in fights and offering less utility. I've played summoner at 70 enough to know this. There is a reason why my SMN buddies have switched to RDM and its not because that class is weaker or the fact that its more "fun".

EDIT: Regarding your edits

So your argument is that since summoner can but their OGCD's on CD and have their dots up on Susano, that they're somehow better that RDM? That 6s doesn't close the gap between RDM and SMN's dps in that fight. My comments on summoner being punishing has everything to do with missing an aetherflow stack which sets you back minutes and makes your dps drop like a brick or dying which is even worse as it sets your bahamut behind 2+ minutes. Summoners suffer the most from any mistake they make is my point. It's not about whether I make those mistakes or not, it's about the severity of the dps loss due to any mistakes made which can be made by the average or good player once in a while.

The fact of the matter is, RDM is much easier to play and offers more to the team than a summoner all the while being able to dish out more dps. The people saying summoner is overpowered in this thread have no clue how summoner plays at 70 in EX fights.

[Neophyte]

https://www.fflogs.com/rankings/char...3/#partition=5

This is me on summoner. To say I don't know how to play the class at a high level is retarded.

So what? You just said the same thing generalizing about everyone not having the same opionion as you do.
Also nice padded echo numbers with 70% balance uptime. My epeen on standard-comp pre echo though is bigger than yours, therefore I'm right I guess.

To miss one in a dozen runs on Cruise chaser might happen, but on the other side it was easy to be top dps as SMN whenever that did not happen. I don't see the tragedy, after some time you have a feeling for the distance a bane can reach and you should also now the Optical Sight patterns were tanks usually go further away from middle.

Further, not sure what players you've been playing with, but my buddies who can play RDM well always parse higher than me (4k+ dps) even when I maximize my summoner dps on EX Lakshimi.

Not sure what you're talking about, because I was talking about Susano not Lakshmi.
And as said, an good RDM suffers a lot more than a good SMN in that fight, depending on stuns and mechanics.
While in Lakshmi indeed SMN suffers more, esp. if you are careful with DoTs and pet and your hard-hitting oGCDs in add phase.

I don't see the reason why completly missing an Aetherflow oGCD (which is very hard tbh if you play concentrated) and therefore screwing your dps is "higher skill sceiling" than screwing your dps as a RDM because of delayed GCDs because of mechanics.
The former is more punishing but happens less, less, less often than the latter.

Aaaaaalso... when you play as SMN together with another RDM you give him Magic damage up every Minute, while he gives you nothing in return.

[CecMiller]

So what? You just said the same thing generalizing about everyone not having the same opionion as you do.
Also nice padded echo numbers with 70% balance uptime. My epeen on standard-comp pre echo though is bigger than yours, therefore I'm right I guess.

Not sure what you're talking about, because I was talking about Susano not Lakshmi.
And as said, an good RDM suffers a lot more than a good SMN in that fight, depending on stuns and mechanics.

Absolutely bullshit. Where is my 70% balance uptime? I don't have padded numbers. Any thorough check on my parses would show you this. Check the A12S parse with 3k+ dps with no AST if you care that much. And I did generalize these people because half the people who commented on this thready saying summoner is overpowered doesn't even HAVE a level 70 summoner. Just look at the 2 people I quoted. Pre-echo I just re-subbed to the game when people had cleared creator savage and was new to summoner with < 250 ilvl. Good job at having higher parses pre-echo. The whole point is to show that I am a good summoner player. Not much else.

Reread my post and maybe you'd understand what I'm talking about. So what if an RDM gets stunned for 6s where they cant dps. And RDM is still going to be doing higher dps overall. What RDM's are you playing with that you're able to outdps them as SMN on Susano EX?


Edit:

Regarding your edits: So what if an RDM can't do much more besides curing and rezzing with their extra MP? Thats more than what a summoner can do as a summoner MUST be spamming Ruin 3 to have high dps and as a result, you will be tragically low mana most of the time except in the first 2 minutes of a fight. An RDM will not go oom while maintaining their 4k+ dps. A summoners dps will tank as they begin to ruin 1 spam instead of Ruin 3 spam. With the extra mana, RDM's can make use of mana shift if a healer so desires. Asking the same of a summoner just means your summoner will be doing even less dps than before.

To reiterate my original point:

RDM offers more utility, does more dps, is far easier to play, has better MP management than summoner and is less clunky. So to say summoner is overpowered is an injustice.

[CecMiller]

Snip.

And as said, an good RDM suffers a lot more than a good SMN in that fight, depending on stuns and mechanics.

Well lets put something to bed:
Top 100 parses Susano EX:
BLM: 3299-4295 DPS
SMN: 3344-3922 DPS
RDM: 3701-4200 DPS

Guess all those summoners must be real bad at the class. I told you SMN does worse than susano EX and the logs just prove me right. RDM needs nerfs or SMN needs some changes to help it do better. Those saying summoner is overpowered in this thread have no clue what they're talking about.

[Drakolos]

It is a more complex to play and has heavier penalties all the while dealing less dps in fights and offering less utility.

This reminds me just exactly the same problem between blm and smn at heavensward.

[Leonus]

From what I read, Drg suffers the most in downtime (or deaths). Was my old main and I should level it to 70. Though I want to get Rdm to 70 first... currently 52. Ugh... PotD.

[RLofOBFL]

According to the SSS dummy hp, SMN is the second highest dps behind SAM. And according to numbers SMN can do more than any class besides SAM. & SMN doesn't suffer more than RDM. SMN gets Aetherflow AND Lucid Dream. RDM only gets Lucid. It's OP in a sense that it has extremely high single target damage potential, gets resurrection and utility as well as high aoe damage.

[CecMiller]

According to the SSS dummy hp, SMN is the second highest dps behind SAM. And according to numbers SMN can do more than any class besides SAM. & SMN doesn't suffer more than RDM. SMN gets Aetherflow AND Lucid Dream. RDM only gets Lucid. It's OP in a sense that it has extremely high single target damage potential, gets resurrection and utility as well as high aoe damage.

To the above:

Who cares about a dummy parse? Have you even played Summoner? My friend has parsed on a dummy for 10 minutes as RDM and maintained 4k+ dps. In actual fights is where the dps matters and there you will consistently find RDM at pole position. The ONLY time RDM needs mana is because they've been resurrecting. Please don't comment on mana management when you're not even aware of how mana hungry the summoner class is. With Lucid Dreaming and Aetherflow, summoner cannot maintain 4k+ dps on an EX fight without outside buffs. You guys keep looking at these dummy parses and think summoner is a god. When you look at an extended fight like any EX fight, you find summoner nowhere close to 2nd place. RDM is king in the current EX fights. I know summoner very well from using it as my main class in creator savage. To say summoner is overpowered is ludicrous. In a dummy parse, Summoner has enough mana for 2 minutes that they do not go out of mana from spamming ruin 3 and have to resort to ruin 1. This is not true in fights which are ABOVE 2 minutes.

Summoners have been proven to have a better overall dps than Red mages. I believe Red mage easier than SMN to be optimized which is why we have high dmg red mages overall. And the thing is Red mage don't waste time to change their habits, they just get used to that new gameplay, instead of looking at what they've lost etc.
Don't look at the past, and focus on what you can do, and you'll see SMN have better dps than Red mages (at least lvl 70).

The whole problem with RDM is that its extremely easy to play compared to summoner whilst doing better dps. It has a very low skill ceiling. And as a summoner main, it didn't take me long to let go of my habbits. Even after looking at the new summoner at level 70, RDM is 100% doing more dps. I have no idea what kinda of poor dps players you've seen where a SMN is outdpsing the red mages in your parties.

[Fannah]

Summoners have been proven to have a better overall dps than Red mages. I believe Red mage easier than SMN to be optimized which is why we have high dmg red mages overall. And the thing is Red mage don't waste time to change their habits, they just get used to that new gameplay, instead of looking at what they've lost etc.
Don't look at the past, and focus on what you can do, and you'll see SMN have better dps than Red mages (at least lvl 70).

[Neela]

Where does rdm provide more utility?...