Let me do my job please...

[ed3891]

Except that expecting the people on other roles within instanced content to do their jobs and perform well is neither arrogant nor rude. Placing the onus for a successful dungeon run entirely on a tank player's shoulders, I would argue, is what contributes to a frayed community. We cannot continue to go along laying blame at the feet of the smallest proportion of players who, as with the healer roles, have taken a very difficult task upon their shoulders.

I expect people on DPS jobs to watch their aggro. I expect them to use their support abilities. I expect them to move at whatever pace tanks set, within reason. I expect them to put forth a team effort rather than focusing on how high they can get their numbers, at the expense of the other three, seven, or twenty-three people in a group.

One of the best things about FFXIV (at least until the SB launch) were the prerequisite class requirements and cross-class actions. There was a mandate with the former, and an incentive with the latter, to play a job outside your preferred role. I feel this conferred a better understanding of what people on the other roles are attempting to accomplish in a particular piece of content, when one had a reason to go and play on other roles for the sake of unlocking soul stones and opening up additional actions. We talk about SMN/SCH applying Virus at a whim pre-4.0, or not using E4E at appropriate times; we talk about melee DPS jobs not paying attention to what mob they're targeting versus what mobs the tank may have marked, or may presently be targeting. If we're going to talk about positive community experience, then we absolutely need to get away from the idea that sole responsibility can or should be laid at the feet of any single role.

I used to slum it up in HW dungeon and alliance raid content on SMN; cleared A9S-A11S on it until my static forced me back onto WAR main for A12S. Having done all that content on a caster job, then doing it on a tank, then flipping back gave me the perspective I needed to understand what I could and should be doing to speed things along and contribute to the party's success without running roughshod over anyone else for my own sake. Yes, I should absolutely hold Virus until I see the "Deadly Thrust" cast bar; yes, I should absolutely toss E4E on the tank after he's pulled and established hate on one group and is moving to pull and establish hate on the next big pack of mobs. Did I accidentally pull hate on one or two mobs with my AoE burst? Hold on, let me pop Sprint and run myself into the tank's face so they can easily get aggro pack with Flash, Unleash, Overpower, etc.

Granted, we have to learn new ways of contributing in SB with all the changes to our toolkits, but in no way, shape, or form should any of us, regardless of what job we prefer to play, operate from a position that responsibility in instanced content is entirely the province of someone else (anyone else!) but ourselves.

[Yorumi]

Except that expecting the people on other roles within instanced content to do their jobs and perform well is neither arrogant nor rude. Placing the onus for a successful dungeon run entirely on a tank player's shoulders, I would argue, is what contributes to a frayed community. We cannot continue to go along laying blame at the feet of the smallest proportion of players who, as with the healer roles, have taken a very difficult task upon their shoulders.

No it arrogant and rude to treat dps players like she does. It's toxic, insulting, and makes the game a worse place to be. At best it's anecdotal evidence at worst it's lies and exaggeration. For every dps player you can find not performing well I could find a dozen tanks that don't know their arm from a stick in the ground. They don't know how their skills work, don't tab target, don't recover enmity when lost, lose enmity to scatter spam(a 100 potency skill), don't position mobs properly, and pull with provoke. It is disturbingly rare to find a good tank in this game. Do you know how annoying, frustrating, and not fun it is to get off work at the end of the day sit in a queue for nearly and hour only to get an absolute jerk of a tank like the above poster? And what's worse most of the time the jerks arn't even good tanks.

It gets old seeing someone like that who has barely ever even played a dps with a vendetta on the forums against everyone else spreading toxic sludge into the community, and that said toxic sludge being defended by people like you. Tell me which you think is worse, a tank who has to hit provoke or an extra flash cause a dps pulled, or a person who makes post after post insult vast members of the community, painting with a broad brush, and spreading toxic sludge in the community?

[ed3891]

...

I would caution, first and foremost, against misconstruing my previous post as a flat defense of rude behavior from any source. My aim was to avoid that by emphasizing that this isn't an issue that's the fault of any particular role, but that we all collectively need to think less about getting ours and ours alone, and think more about making a team effort regardless of who we're paired with in whatever content.

You've got to consider that tanking is incredibly difficult for a number of reasons. Impatience from the DPS, the healer, etc. isn't going to help a situation where a tank is new, or even if they're not exactly new, inexperienced with a particular dungeon or raid. Tanks are hard to come by, yeah, and good tanks moreso - but the fact is that you're rarely given leeway on a tank job to learn a dungeon or a trial fight unless you were there when the content was released and brand new. For as many people as are willing to be patient and supportive of a new tank, there are just as many inclined to brook no quarter, and enough harassment and impatience will turn people off to tanking, or drive them from the game entirely. Hence, we wind up with fewer people compelled to put in the massive amount of time and effort needed to become proficient at all the content they might face, and a greater number who are taking their first forays into the job, only to get hammered down for not knowing everything from the get-go.

At the same time, I understand where you're coming from. I'm not looking to suggest that tank players can't be and aren't just as likely to be rude and toxic to their DPS and healers (as evidenced by some of the above posts), but that again comes back to this issue of all of us needing to expend less effort on blaming others and instead exercise more restraint, and being more willing to offer advice and support. You are, of course, going to run into people who don't and won't give a damn about any advice offered to them, but my view is that you handle those people on a case-by-case basis after the fact, rather than making assumptions from the get-go.

[Yorumi]

but the fact is that you're rarely given leeway on a tank job to learn a dungeon or a trial fight unless you were there when the content was released and brand new.

The problem is this is entirely confirmation bias. We all tend to view or chosen main as the greatest victim in the world and the hardest job to play too. I've played tank, I've played heal, I've played dps. I've done dungeons on my tank for the first time long after they were current content due to breaks and such. When I'm new I say so, when my gearis a bit behind I say so and say I'm not entirely comfortable with large pulls in that scenario. I've missed boss mechanics that hurt quite a bit due to being new. You know how many times I've had people complain about my tanking? Never, not one time. Difficulty wise I find tank to be the easiest role to play by FAR. All you have to do is gather up mods and spam your threat, for bosses just avoid telegraphs and keep hate on it.

Lets contrast shall we. Healer? I've had tanks pulling way more than they're capable without tank stance on, not using a cooldown, proceeding to die in one gcd and then screaming at me for not being able to heal the impossible. I've had parties made derogatory comments when the tank is taking so much damage all my gcds are spent healer cause I'm also not spamming holy. If a tank misses a mechanic and dies it's my fault, if dps are standing in a cleave it's my fault.

Dps? I had a dungeon where I fat fingered a couple skills. In a self deprecating way I said in party chat "ugh, i don't know what's wrong with me today, I messed up a couple rotations." The response I got was, not joke "oh you're complaining? dps don't get to complain, enjoy the long queue" followed by a kick from dungeon. If you don't have synced or top of the line gear it's "dps sucks, you guys should just quit the game."

I don't know if those experiences are typical, but I can say it makes me have little sympathy for tanks whining about their job and berating everyone else. When someone is posting, unprovoked, an arrogant, insultint, toxic post I don't want to heal about how we all need to come together. No, that person needs to stop being a jerk. To stop making tanks look bad.

[LalafellDown]

"You pull it you tank it." That's not the tank mentality we tanks live by. A true tank finds pleasure taking Aggro. away from our peasant DPS brothren. We do not cry foul when the adds desire to look upon our fellow party members. Instead we rejoice for the opportunity to remind the adds that their sight should be focused on the glorious specimen that is the tank. Wether it's with an axe, a sword or a great sword.

[Jim_Berry]

As a tank main, I love my job. Enough to the point where I don't care about those who pull. I have to attack/hold the enemy anyway. Some people find it bothersome. It's normal for me. Keep pulling for me, and I'll keep taking it from you. I don't care. If I did care, I wouldn't be a tank.

I'm also a believer that people who pull can generally kill the mob pulled. I appreciate it more when they pull and bring it to me, instead of pulling then running around like headless chickens (please don't pull and kite).

[Neophyte]

As a tank main, I love my job. Enough to the point where I don't care about those who pull. I have to attack/hold the enemy anyway. Some people find it bothersome. It's normal for me. Keep pulling for me, and I'll keep taking it from you. I don't care. If I did care, I wouldn't be a tank.

This.

What's next, healer saying 'I don't heal ya, when you stand in avoidable damage" or a dps saying 'I won't attack that' if you pull 'optional' enemies like they exist in some dungeon.

Or a dps not entering the boss arena because tank pulled when the dps were still out of range: "You pull before I set up my opener or have aetherflow ready? You kill it".

[YitharV2]

'I don't heal ya, when you stand in avoidable damage"

Yeah, like, I still heal people when they stand in avoidable AoEs. I just start cursing if they keep doing it.

[aleph_null]

Yeah, like, I still heal people when they stand in avoidable AoEs. I just start cursing if they keep doing it.

Sometimes it's unintentional because of latency or people weren't prepared, and even when it's intentional sometimes they have a good reason (keeping buffs going on, triggering stuffs that require them to get hit like blood price, shield swipe proc, or just that it won't kill them so it's a dps gain by eating the aoe, though in this case it's better to let the healers know beforehands). Personally as a tank I don't think fighting over small matters like dps pulling ahead of me is worth it, unless it's obviously intended for griefing purposes. If you complain over every little thing random pugs do in dungeons you'd lose your sanity rather quickly lol.

[YitharV2]

Sometimes it's unintentional because of latency or people weren't prepared, and even when it's intentional sometimes they have a good reason (keeping buffs going on, triggering stuffs that require them to get hit like blood price, shield swipe proc, or just that it won't kill them so it's a dps gain by eating the aoe, though in this case it's better to let the healers know beforehands). Personally as a tank I don't think fighting over small matters like dps pulling ahead of me is worth it, unless it's obviously intended for griefing purposes. If you complain over every little thing random pugs do in dungeons you'd lose your sanity rather quickly lol.

We have someone in our FC who lives in Japan (and also seems to be somewhat bad at dodging AoEs too from what she said), and I understand that latency can be a problem. That doesn't make it any less frustrating as a healer, since I prefer that only the tank take damage. It screws up what I was planning to do and makes the run take longer since now I have to constantly heal 2 people.

Cursing for me is more of a habit rather than complaining. But you know what they say, people who swear tend to be more honest.