New PLD should learn how to use their mp effectly...!!!

[Silver-Strider]

IDK, I'm not level 70 yet on my PLD yet but I'm going to go out on a limb and say that even if we used Holy Spirit and Clemency as freely as you advised, you still wouldn't notice out MP pools going down all that much. I just ran the 63 dungeon, trying to get PLD up to the next tier dungeons and even when effectively spamming Holy Spirit and Clemency after my Aggro was established, my MP would not go down past 60%, if even that. Enemies were just dying way too quickly that it felt largely unnecessary to spam them to a point that I was going MP starved before the next mob pull and even on bosses, I still have to maintain aggro as my 1st priority and against good DPS, it's not like I could spam either move without risk of losing aggro.

Then, there are external thing you need to be aware as well.
Is someone giving out MP via a role skill?
Did the PLD pop a potion? (Weird but it's possible)
Are you just looking at the wrong times?

Regardless, I do like the changes made and while I am still leveling my PLD, I don't really expect anything to change upon hitting 70 about these skills that would make the situation any different than what I'm currently experiencing.

[Furious]

IDK, I'm not level 70 yet on my PLD yet but I'm going to go out on a limb and say that even if we used Holy Spirit and Clemency as freely as you advised, you still wouldn't notice out MP pools going down all that much. I just ran the 63 dungeon, trying to get PLD up to the next tier dungeons and even when effectively spamming Holy Spirit and Clemency after my Aggro was established, my MP would not go down past 60%, if even that. Enemies were just dying way too quickly that it felt largely unnecessary to spam them to a point that I was going MP starved before the next mob pull and even on bosses, I still have to maintain aggro as my 1st priority and against good DPS, it's not like I could spam either move without risk of losing aggro.

Then, there are external thing you need to be aware as well.
Is someone giving out MP via a role skill?
Did the PLD pop a potion? (Weird but it's possible)
Are you just looking at the wrong times?

Regardless, I do like the changes made and while I am still leveling my PLD, I don't really expect anything to change upon hitting 70 about these skills that would make the situation any different than what I'm currently experiencing.

If you werent going oom then you weren't spamming clemency or holy spirit, there isn't much more to it than that. Refresh would hold you high for one or two pulls, not for the dungeon. You don't even have the passive that reduces your mp costs by half yet if I remember right.

Holy spirit doesn't have a lot of use in true aoe, but paladin aoe is pretty crap and it takes a lot of targets to make it worth using eclipse over holy spirit as far as damage is concerned.

[Presbytier]

Clemancy is great but you can't expect a Pali to constantly self heal. I had a hard time in groups beating susano because the healer assumed i would just heal myself. I was constantly running out of MP. Damage Mitigation is on me especially with that lovely Tank Buster but good lord don't expect me to self heal.

[ShariusTC]

Clemancy is great but you can't expect a Pali to constantly self heal. I had a hard time in groups beating susano because the healer assumed i would just heal myself. I was constantly running out of MP. Damage Mitigation is on me especially with that lovely Tank Buster but good lord don't expect me to self heal.

that more like problem on healer side, you should talk about it for them before pull, it take 2 combo for 1 clemency and 5 clemency to empty out your mp, it's not something you can spam at whim

[Furious]

Clemancy is great but you can't expect a Pali to constantly self heal. I had a hard time in groups beating susano because the healer assumed i would just heal myself. I was constantly running out of MP. Damage Mitigation is on me especially with that lovely Tank Buster but good lord don't expect me to self heal.

8 man single target content is different to running dungeons. Healers are going to out-damage you on aoe pulls with little damage, but they aren't going to outdamage you on single target burn fights (and certainly not during the holy spirit part of your rotation which is where your mana would be going).

[Silver-Strider]

If you werent going oom then you weren't spamming clemency or holy spirit, there isn't much more to it than that. Refresh would hold you high for one or two pulls, not for the dungeon. You don't even have the passive that reduces your mp costs by half yet if I remember right.

Holy spirit doesn't have a lot of use in true aoe, but paladin aoe is pretty crap and it takes a lot of targets to make it worth using eclipse over holy spirit as far as damage is concerned.

Couple of things.
1st: both Holy Spirit and the passive that reduces the cost are unlocked at 64.
2nd: Eclipse is better than Holy Spirit in any pull of 4+ mobs. Using Holy Spirit in those situations is a DPS loss and by the time the numbers are in Holy Spirit's favor, the mobs are already at Death's Doorstep anyway.
3rd: You cannot really spam Clemency or Holy Spirit and still maintain aggro. Yes, Clemency might help for a bit but good DPS will outpace the Emnity generation of it fairly easily and while Holy Spirit hits very hard, it doesn't generate enough Emnity per cast to outpace them either.
4th: Since Royal Authority has been changed to the Riot Blade combo set up, the amount of times I'm using Riot Blade has doubled resulting in more MP returns as well.

I said effectively spamming those skills, as in using it to its max potential without it affecting my role as tank. If I lost aggro because I was spamming Holy Spirit, that wouldn't be very effective now would it?

[GDFletcher]

Before Lv 64 Paladin MP

Flash 707
Clemency 2121

If you go by the average of 5k MP pool - you can do about 2 Clemency before you try use the MP regen rotation for all of about 400-500 MP restored. Hardly a dent in your pool.

After Lv 64 and the trait unlocked that brings MP cost down by half for spell skills, MP is more manageable, but if you are expecting a Paladin to mass pull everything from the old style meta expect them to be low on MP just simply because you can not regain more than you spend, even using MP pots and burning a 2min cooldown. This is probably why Ice Mages (I mean Blackmage) has become a battery of likes, their 20% MP trade off can equate to half of the Paladin's entire MP.

The issue with the jump potion will be the same for every class, just like levelling up in PotD it won't help you master playing your class at all, if anything it adds to this suicidal method that most players seem to have

[Furious]

Couple of things.
1st: both Holy Spirit and the passive that reduces the cost are unlocked at 64.

I assumed you were 63, since you said you ran that dungeon.

2nd: Eclipse is better than Holy Spirit in any pull of 4+ mobs. Using Holy Spirit in those situations is a DPS loss and by the time the numbers are in Holy Spirit's favor, the mobs are already at Death's Doorstep anyway.

Depends on whether or not you have FoF or Requiescat available. And, that's pretty much what I said. As for being at death's door, damage is damage. It's either better or it's not.

3rd: You cannot really spam Clemency or Holy Spirit and still maintain aggro. Yes, Clemency might help for a bit but good DPS will outpace the Emnity generation of it fairly easily and while Holy Spirit hits very hard, it doesn't generate enough Emnity per cast to outpace them either.

Clemency has far more threat than total eclipse ever will. If you are missing the HP to be healed (or anyone else is), clemency generates base enemity equal to half the healing done (which means 600 potency of enmity PER TARGET). Clemency is our best aoe enmity generator, and 5.5 times better than total eclipse alone when it heals. It also doesn't suffer from the 20% "damage" reduction while in shield oath.

In shield oath, Total Eclipse generates 110*.8*2.7=237.6 potency per target.
Clemency generates 1200*.5*2.7=1620 potency of enmity per target. For it to equal total eclipse in enmity, it needs to do only 15% of its potential healing.

This is the reason why you sometimes see healers creeping up on your enmity on aoe pulls where other dps don't; the healing they do generates .5 enmity per point of healing but it applies it to every mob.

4th: Since Royal Authority has been changed to the Riot Blade combo set up, the amount of times I'm using Riot Blade has doubled resulting in more MP returns as well.

I said effectively spamming those skills, as in using it to its max potential without it affecting my role as tank. If I lost aggro because I was spamming Holy Spirit, that wouldn't be very effective now would it?

If you lost aggro while spamming clemency, you are doing it wrong or nobody is taking damage. Holy spirit is only good for not true aoe, but small target aoe (2-3), which is what I said.

[Nabian]

Maybe because they used a jump potion. Yes I noticed this when I done susano extreme, where the other tank did not even know what the tank buster is, and how to mitigate it with a cool down. taking a full hit is insta death. It will phase it's self out after a few months, when people had there fill.

This...sadly as a drk tank I've seen so many new tanks that don't know their rotation or anything about general mechanics. Want to see pld using their wings more often.

[ShariusTC]

This...sadly as a drk tank I've seen so many new tanks that don't know their rotation or anything about general mechanics. Want to see pld using their wings more often.

well i guess because some PLD take what devs said in a live letter too serious, devs said this skill use to protect your pt member doesnt mean you can't use it as 1 of your defensive cd if there are none to protect in the next 2 minutes, it goddamn 100% block rate in 18s, way better than Bulwark with only 60% block rate in 15s and have 3 minutes cd