Extreme Undercutting - Should it be a violation?

[Claviusnex]

If buyers are making smart decisions, then undercurrting by 1gil doesn't impact buying decisions since it's next to zero compared to taxes when buying out of your home market.

I tend to buy based on the quantity I need and the total cost. I'm not saving anything if I need 3 at 100 gil when the lowest priced is 10 for 50 gil.

[alimdia]

Someone dropped a random remark about undercutting = griefing and you decide to make this a community problem instead of just ignoring it, to the point of reporting yourself for undercutting (???)

Like... why?

[Paladinleeds]

Someone dropped a random remark about undercutting = griefing and you decide to make this a community problem instead of just ignoring it, to the point of reporting yourself for undercutting (???)

Like... why?

They said it was griefing, which to me read as me breaching the ToS. I have sent numerous reports to the GMs about myself over perceived rule breaking. More than I can count. I'm very tough about rules. A very black and white approach to them too.

[alimdia]

Rules aren't decided by players, they are decided by GMs, so why are you reporting yourself over stuff players say?

Did you know every time you send a report that's time they are taking from answering other legitimate tickets?

[Spawnie]

Ofc its not a violation lmao... just because you think the item is worth 34m for example doesnt mean every1 else does

[Paladinleeds]

Rules aren't decided by players, they are decided by GMs, so why are you reporting yourself over stuff players say?

Did you know every time you send a report that's time they are taking from answering other legitimate tickets?

If there's cause to believe a rule was broken, the whole point is to report it so a GM can investigate. In this case, it was found that I hadn't breached a rule. But previous tickets sent about myself HAVE resulted in investigations being made. And while I believe so far they have all come back clean, the fact they've been investigated means the possibility of a rule breach was there. Ergo, not wasted time. You will not convince me otherwise. Griefing IS a terms of service violation. This particular incident wasn't griefing but as I wasn't sure, I felt a report was a good idea. Despite your claims to the contrary, I still believe it was the right thing to do.

[alimdia]

Griefing has an intent, how do you not know if you are intending to harass someone? If you don't know it means there's no intent to grief.

I mean you're free to send as many tickets as you want, but be aware you are being very inconsiderate when you are wasting GM resources.

[LineageRazor]

If people are undercutting that severely, I'm buying that shit up and reposting it.

That's an excellent idea, which benefits you and the seller both!

...as long as you haven't misread the market. If you buy all that cheap stuff and relist for a price that few are willing to pay anymore, you wind up with egg on your face.

They said it was griefing, which to me read as me breaching the ToS. I have sent numerous reports to the GMs about myself over perceived rule breaking. More than I can count. I'm very tough about rules. A very black and white approach to them too.

I'd like to say that this is an admirable attitude to have - but sadly, it is not. Very few things in the ToS can be properly interpreted in black-and-white terms. Consider, for example, Yoshi P's stance on selling housing plots to other players. He says that it's absolutely an infraction to resell a property for an enormous sum of money - but does not go into any specifics as to how much "an enormous sum" actually is. Debate on what an appropriate price is to sell a plot has generated more than one thread on these forums - and in the end, it all comes down to the mood of players observing the sale (who may or may not report the individual) and the whims of the GM assigned to investigate (who likely also has no official rulebook stating how much is too much).

Worse, by frequently reporting yourself (or anyone else!) to the GM for minor infractions, the GMs are distracted from handling more serious issues, such as freeing players who have gotten stuck due to some game glitch ("I'm trapped behind my bed, I can't reach the door, and can't use Return or Teleport inside an Inn room - please help!").

On top of this, it sounds as though you reported yourself just because someone told you you were griefing. This indicates an uncomfortable degree of credulity; folks say all kinds of unfortunate things when they are angry. Even if you do not have the tendency to resort to emotional outbursts when frustrated, it's important to understand that many, if not most, other players will from time to time. When someone confronts you for some wrongdoing you've supposedly done, you should verify that you're actually in the wrong before incriminating yourself. You seem to be doing so in this thread - but you did so AFTER reporting yourself. That seems backwards to me: you should verify your own guilt before submitting yourself for punishment. Leaving it to overworked GMs to decide whether you're guilty or innocent is the lazy way out.

At any rate, I hope that you've learned from this thread that undercutting is not against any rule. Yes, it will make some folks mad, but just about anything you do on the market has a shot of doing that. For that matter, anything you do in game or even in real life has a chance of angering someone. People come in all kinds, some more reasonable than others, and this sometimes results in friction. It is unavoidable, as long as you're interacting with other people in any capacity at all.

[Paladinleeds]

Griefing has an intent, how do you not know if you are intending to harass someone? If you don't know it means there's no intent to grief.

I mean you're free to send as many tickets as you want, but be aware you are being very inconsiderate when you are wasting GM resources.

To me, even if it wasn't the intent, it was what I did. Again, it probably goes back to that black and white thinking I mentioned earlier. For me, the reason I do those severe undercuts is to try and bring prices crashing down, which I'm told is griefing. My reasoning for it is to try and make things more affordable for newer players, make things cheaper. Someone told me that was griefing, which I agree I blindly took as gospel when I should have done more research. Other times, it's because I've made someone uncomfortable which I treat as harassment. It's possible I'm black and white to extreme levels and to a fault, but it's how my mind processes things (I'm very much a J to a fault in the Myers-Briggs personality test, it either happened or it didn't, circumstances and intent do not matter). Funnily enough, I'm more often than not a lot more lenient on others than myself. You wouldn't believe how many people tell me I need to cut myself some slack. But, it is what it is.

I'd like to say that this is an admirable attitude to have - but sadly, it is not. Very few things in the ToS can be properly interpreted in black-and-white terms. Consider, for example, Yoshi P's stance on selling housing plots to other players. He says that it's absolutely an infraction to resell a property for an enormous sum of money - but does not go into any specifics as to how much "an enormous sum" actually is. Debate on what an appropriate price is to sell a plot has generated more than one thread on these forums - and in the end, it all comes down to the mood of players observing the sale (who may or may not report the individual) and the whims of the GM assigned to investigate (who likely also has no official rulebook stating how much is too much).

Worse, by frequently reporting yourself (or anyone else!) to the GM for minor infractions, the GMs are distracted from handling more serious issues, such as freeing players who have gotten stuck due to some game glitch ("I'm trapped behind my bed, I can't reach the door, and can't use Return or Teleport inside an Inn room - please help!").

On top of this, it sounds as though you reported yourself just because someone told you you were griefing. This indicates an uncomfortable degree of credulity; folks say all kinds of unfortunate things when they are angry. Even if you do not have the tendency to resort to emotional outbursts when frustrated, it's important to understand that many, if not most, other players will from time to time. When someone confronts you for some wrongdoing you've supposedly done, you should verify that you're actually in the wrong before incriminating yourself. You seem to be doing so in this thread - but you did so AFTER reporting yourself. That seems backwards to me: you should verify your own guilt before submitting yourself for punishment. Leaving it to overworked GMs to decide whether you're guilty or innocent is the lazy way out.

At any rate, I hope that you've learned from this thread that undercutting is not against any rule. Yes, it will make some folks mad, but just about anything you do on the market has a shot of doing that. For that matter, anything you do in game or even in real life has a chance of angering someone. People come in all kinds, some more reasonable than others, and this sometimes results in friction. It is unavoidable, as long as you're interacting with other people in any capacity at all.

I am prone to emotional outbursts myself when I get angry (just ask my former FC leader, it was anger at something that happened IRL that prompted me to up and move to Louisoix as a means of isolation. Backwards logic I know, but truth be told I am mostly enjoying Louisoix, possible blessing in disguise?), so I can see where you're coming from there.

And when you put it that way of other issues it takes them from, it does start to make more sense that maybe I should indeed take my friend's advice and cut myself some slack, being human after all I do make mistakes (easier said than done when you've indoctrined yourself that you're not allowed to make mistakes over many years, but I'm working on it!)

But yes, a good takeaway point I've noticed from there is I should indeed double check that it's not an emotional outburst, or some other manner of nefarious scheme, before moving forward. I must admit I am prone to taking people's words at face value. I'm not sure why I'm that way, but I generally am. I usually believe if I've been told I've done something wrong, I have, because they said so. Something else to bring up at my next therapy session methinks.

And finally, one point I did forget to touch upon. You're right actually that a lot of things are very grey here in the FFXIV rule nuances. I guess for someone who primarily thinks in black and white as I do (due to how my brain processes things, I struggle tremendously with seeing the "grey area"), the very vague nature of the rules just makes things an even bigger clustertruck to understand. Your point about housing is a very valid one now that I really think over it. In any case, I do feel, jabs and insults from some commenters aside, that I have learned quite a lot from this.

[addz3]

I can't believe this post had wracked up 9 pages of 'discussion' when the answer is.... No. I thought this was going to be some troll thread....