Extreme Undercutting - Should it be a violation?

[Kohdo]

Nope. People can learn to play the market or not. I don't need an external arbitrator deciding what a "reasonable" price is for me to sell my gigantoad hides at.

The market will right itself. Every time.

[Mazora_Espeon]

EDIT: FOR CLARIFICATION. Yes, I reported MYSELF to the GMs for this. Not another player. Myself. Because I was told I was griefing other players by doing this extreme undercutting. I acted upon what I had heard from other players. And I felt the GM response warranted a thread opened to discuss this. Please don't think I'm trying to say that one person should control the markets

So, after a heated and angry me decided to report myself for extreme undercutting (90% undercuts for example, to try and lower prices) I was responded to with this.

Greetings (name),

Thank you for your call.

We're deeply sorry that your game experience is disrupted by another player. Unfortunately, undercutting in the Market board is not a violation to our rules and policies, therefore we're afraid we won't be able to assist you in this case.

We would be very grateful if you could submit any suggestions or comments on our official forums. Your feedback will then be forwarded to the appropriate department by our Community Representatives. We remind you however that name shaming is strictly against our forums guidelines, therefore we advise you to share your comments without referring to any specific player.

Official forums:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/

Although individual responses aren't sent, rest assured that all comments submitted are read and considered for future updates.

Thank you for your understanding and we apologise for any inconvenience caused.

Regards,

- The FINAL FANTASY XIV Game Master Team

So, currently it clearly isn't a violation. But do you think it should be a violation? Why do you think so?

Personally, if it is deterimental to the experiences of other players as I have been told it is, I believe it should be. I do believe experiences which severely negative impact the experiences of others (as I believe severe undercutting is), should be punished. But what are your thoughts? Let's turn my heated and angry moment into a useful discussion.

No no no... You have it all wrong... It isn't that it "currently" isn't a problem, it's that it IS NOT a problem. And why is that? Because it's part of the uncontrollable feature of an MMO. Undercutting is just how the game's economy works. And if you don't like it, then build your own market of people to trade stuff with. On the Balmung server, there are many people who offer to craft things for free if someone has the materials for it. And then you also have people that are willing to give things away to people for free as well. So tell me... should something that's uncontrollable and unmonitorable such as giving things freely to people also be a violation? Because technically... if company was able to give things away for free in the real world, then it would cause other companies that their competing to lose their consumers since everyone would flock to the free stuff causing the other companies to lose business

[Paladinleeds]

No, it's should not be a violation. Echoing others in this thread, it's a free market, sell what you want at the price you want, if it's worth it to someone they'll buy it.

Yep, you see, that's something I understand. A free market is how FFXIV runs. But it does attract its fair share of complaints, including me being told I'm griefing other players by undercutting by extreme amounts with the intention of bringing prices down overall (yes, that was why I reported myself.)

No no no... You have it all wrong... It isn't that it "currently" isn't a problem, it's that it IS NOT a problem. And why is that? Because it's part of the uncontrollable feature of an MMO. Undercutting is just how the game's economy works. And if you don't like it, then build your own market of people to trade stuff with. On the Balmung server, there are many people who offer to craft things for free if someone has the materials for it. And then you also have people that are willing to give things away to people for free as well. So tell me... should giving things freely to people also be a violation? Because technically... giving things away for free in the real world effects the gross domestic product of a company.

Funnily enough, some of the people in the other thread that I allowed to make me angry might indeed think that way. Personally, I don't, I just want to open a discussion. I accept that the use of the word "currently" was incorrect in that situation.

Should report you for charging to much !

As I stated in my original post, I reported myself for the extreme undercutting and not another player. I'm usually the one trying to bring prices down. I bolded it at the very top of the post to help people see it clearer too. Outside of the RMT reports, the only reports I usually send are against myself.

I was expecting snark. Nice you came back at me respectfully. More should follow that example.

But I have to still disagree with you. And I played runescape and if I remember the restrictions on price lead to many who craft in mmos to forgo crafting and selling as "what's the point". Controls on economy tend to damage games. Might I suggest if you are drastically undercut next time, buy the item and sell it back at your asking price. You get a good item for a massive discount, can make a large profit, and place your listings at the top of the page. That's how I deal with undercutters.

And that's fair enough. I do remember it going down like a lead balloon on RuneScape (I was playing at the time it happened!), so I can see why people are against the idea of it. I just felt it was a valid example of where what you had suggested had actually occurred. And I'm usually the one undercutting, though my former FC members have pulled the same trick you suggested to their advantage.

snip

The way I did explode over it probably was a forum violation, but that's neither here nor there (and after I started to calm down I cleared up my mess, my posts are still quoted though). Yeah, the stuff you've said does make sense. My friend who is reading this thread (but not commenting, they're a silent reader), was saying I hadn't violated the rules either (the undercutting thing). What you said though makes a ton of sense and has helped me understand the free markets a bit better. So I really thank you for that. It does seem to be a case of supply vs demand and monopolies vs competition in the game. Starting to wish I'd studied economics at university and not digital media lol. Mayhap this would have been known by me from the outset. Still valuable reading though, and I really appreciate your comments.

You can't try to control what someone sells items for nor can you guess their motives. There is nothing wrong with someone dumping an item nor should there ever be any rules about it. I see people put stuff on the MB for less than the basic sales price all of the time. My guess is most are just trying to get rid of it and help some buyer out that might be able to use the item. If they want to sell at a loss who am I to tell them they can't? Yes it can be frustrating but the market tends to recover to its normal selling range pretty quickly.

Not that I would ever try to change it but the one thing that does get my goat are those people that list for one gil less that the lowest price. When I undercut I at least try to make it significant enough so as to not make it look like I'm playing games.

Yeah, the 1 gil reduction drives me up the nut. I'm usually reducing by a few hundred to a few thousand if I'm not extreme undercutting. I like you want it to feel significant. I also hate the for example 1'499'999 costs. Something about it being so close to a nice round number but not quite reminds me of the 99p shenanigans places like McDonalds pull, and that just drives me insane. Or like Poundworld vs 99p store (before it was bought out). And now we have 98p stores popping up... sigh

[Annah]

it happens. People don't like it.

But I play the market too. If you undercut by 90% I will buy your product and put it right back on the message board for a couple gil less than the lowest one.

So i don't ever get angry about that. I actually love it. It's free gil for me

[BlastHardcheese]

it happens. People don't like it.

But I play the market too. If you undercut by 90% I will buy your product and put it right back on the message board for a couple gil less than the lowest one.

So i don't ever get angry about that. I actually love it. It's free gil for me

This. If I'm heavily active in a market I'll generally know how quick I can turn round an extra stack/piece of whatever it is, it's free gil.

People who flood slow moving items with 10 different lots are actually Satan though. I mean, crafting mats? Go buck wild but noone wants to see 20 crafting rings listed 1 gil under your regular price. But that's the game haha.

Commerce is a wonderful thing

[White_Wolf_X]

[Odeon]

It should not be a violation, and you were not griefing, OP.

Players who complained were just salty that you'd get the money first and prevent them from getting money.

The thing is, suply and demand make it impossible to control the economy through undercutting prices. That is, unless RMT activity and/or EVE Online levels of organization.

What I mean is: if you cut prices so much that you make it impossible for others to keep selling their products without reducing their prices to your level, it only shows that the actual value of the item is lower than they set it at.

Otherwise, no matter how low you set your prices, items of value will sell too quickly for you to keep flooding the market uintil they eventually reach the threshold beyond which they start piling up again.

Everybody wins with extreme undercutting of prices. We should just let it be.

[Claviusnex]

You can't try to control what someone sells items for nor can you guess their motives. There is nothing wrong with someone dumping an item nor should there ever be any rules about it. I see people put stuff on the MB for less than the basic sales price all of the time. My guess is most are just trying to get rid of it and help some buyer out that might be able to use the item. If they want to sell at a loss who am I to tell them they can't? Yes it can be frustrating but the market tends to recover to its normal selling range pretty quickly.

Not that I would ever try to change it but the one thing that does get my goat are those people that list for one gil less that the lowest price. When I undercut I at least try to make it significant enough so as to not make it look like I'm playing games.

[Sho86]

those people that list for one gil less that the lowest price.

This is the only time I'll bottom out a market I'm in. If they want to make an actual discount for competition, then I'll either try to match or go lower. If they match my price I more often then not leave it alone. If I see someone do the 1 gil cut more than once, I make huge dives till they're gone (and its never truly 'at a loss' for me since everything I sell is made from what I gather, just a lower rate of gain). I have no respect for people who just want to be on top.

[KisaiTenshi]

The only thing SE should fix with the market is set the default price to the current lowest price on the market instead of the NPC sell-to price. Anything that sells for less than 10 gil you are better off selling to the NPC than wasting space on your retainer to sell it.