WAR is Trash Tier Now

[aleph_null]

War pull wouldn't be as good as before unless you have a nin (in which case you can do the tomahawk > equilibrium > deliverance pull followed with eye combo and 2 bb combos), since unchained shares cd with inner release, making the dps "cost" of unchained pull rather high.

[CaptnYesterday]

For MT, it's not just about holding aggro or mitigating/sustaining. It's about doing both. That alone looks to make WAR a trash tier to other players when they can push harder by having 2 PLDs or a PLD/DRK. These failings and fighting against them take away satisfaction of WAR class and make it feel janky in rotation execution.

I reserved judgement til 70+ but after some hard realizations, WAR is just not smooth or fun to play. I'll finish getting the Verity gear, but the weapon I buy? Pretty sure it'll be a sword. Hope I'm wrong.

[P4X0R10N]

Can we get a sticky or compilation of war grievances? At least let us know you're, ie SE, is looking into it.

[Lewtskie]

If we could have Bloodbath back, and have it be the mirror to Inner Release instead of Unchained, so in Defiance we can maintain the sustainability. If Overpower could have a wider spread and maybe not require a target to use, and if OP and maybe even Tomahawk could generate a small amount of Beast Gauge, how much better WAR would flow.

The good is there, the Beast Gauge is a greater evolution of the stacks, we just need be given some nurturing here.

[Leigaon]

• Stance Dancing: Beast should not be reduced when you switch

What would you change in both the stances besides the reduction? Would you add anything to Deliverance or Defiance to balance out why they made the large penalty?

• Infuriate: Usable outside of combat...

I'll admit, I do tap that button outside of combat so I could see that being in there, but what would you adjust to outside of that? Would you increase the timer? decrease it? increase the amount?

• Shake It Off: Useless since zerk change, needs to remove stun and bloodbath’s ability put onto it as well

I'm far from a veteran tank, do you find yourself as a tank in any other situation where you need to use a self Esuna? Do you think that an Esuna + Bloodbath syncs well? Maybe it needs to be re-done entirely.

• Butcher’s Block: Needs to give 20 beast gauge instead of 10

Just this? You don't think additional beast gauge from other moves would be helpful? Just a chunk at the end? Or do you think spreading it out to other moves in smaller portions? Or you just want the giant 20 at the end of BB?

• Onslaught: DMG loss either needs to cost no beast gauge

So you're not big on the pro side of it, do you think that if additional beast gauge was given like in your previous point, that would help? Remember if you get the additional gauge buff, would you notice that 10 for this move as harshly as you do now?

I do not understand the Berserk one from the wording but maybe that's my fault.

• Fell Cleave: Needs to have a buff as PLD and DRK average potency is around 70 higher so cleave needs to put up to around 600-700 potency
• STR/VIT: 270 STR accessories > 310 as STR bonus is better than VIT

These two I put together for a question. Remember, I'm here for information because I'm new. So Dark Knight & Paladin have a higher overall potency? I am learning more about these potency stats. So I'll need to go back to educate myself because I see a few factors in the main weapons but nothing huge, along with the other jobs major heavy hitters but nothing outstanding. But wouldn't some of the changes above make the 700 potency a bit too high? Or wouldn't that allow it to be lowered?

Just curious on these thought processes here, just remember they did some things for a reason so stay within those boundaries where it is acceptable. I personally wouldn't mind IR to be away from Unchained and have its own Defiance boost when used. I'd like to see my eyes glow red a bit more! Then there's always the need to adjust the other jobs if you believe it will hinder them at all to make something balanced.

If we could have Bloodbath back, and have it be the mirror to Inner Release instead of Unchained...

I can understand this, so you're asking for the ability to sustain ourselves back a bit more in return for the lack of dmg -% we don't get from our stance? IR having a blood bath boost to Defiance mode and not use up Unchained? I'd like to see that, if anything the bloodbath + iron will combo would be nice to have for Defiance.

I wish all you warriors luck with proposing these issues to SE, and be careful!

[Venjenz]

What would you change in both the stances besides the reduction? Would you add anything to Deliverance or Defiance to balance out why they made the large penalty?

Defiance should mitigate 10% more dmg and Deliverance should add 10% more DPS. Just that would make a 50 beast cost feel more appropriate.

I'll admit, I do tap that button outside of combat so I could see that being in there, but what would you adjust to outside of that? Would you increase the timer? decrease it? increase the amount?

Infuriate would be a good way to deal with the stance swap penalty. I'd leave the timer at 60s, but either have Defiance/Deliverance trigger a 15s timer reduction, or have Infuriate fill the beast gauge completely. Leave to "in combat only" but extend its power in order to tweak the stance swap.

I'm far from a veteran tank, do you find yourself as a tank in any other situation where you need to use a self Esuna? Do you think that an Esuna + Bloodbath syncs well? Maybe it needs to be re-done entirely.

I think fights where stacking debuffs happen give Shake It Off its purpose. Not sure how many of those kind of fights are in the 68+ content because I am not there, but that would seem to be it's best intended use. Stuff Esuna cannot get rid of, but SIO could? It needs a shield, dmg reduction or heal added. Nothing major, but something like 1/3 of Equilibrium in Defiance?

[supreme]

WE need bloodbath back !! , specaily for the lower instances
and overpower is shit for tagging mobs with its cone effect everything runs past it

[ed3891]

I could buy into the idea of Shake It Off having a use in higher-end content if we hadn't already been down this road since ARR's launch with PLD's Tempered Will. DRK has no native means to divest itself of status debuffs, and as such, we are not going to see content designed around inflicting multiple stacked detrimental statuses when only two of the three tanks have that ability.

The point about WAR no longer bringing anything of value to the table remains valid. What little WAR brings in the form of the slashing down debuff is easily accessed by including NIN/SAM in a group, and both PLD/DRK can approach WAR's damage output without the long setup or the punishing resource losses. You need entirely too many GCDs to both set up and execute six successive Fell Cleaves, and as has been articulated previously, Inner Release sharing a cooldown timer with Unchained practically removes Unchained's utility and eliminates any incentive to use it. Like it or not, the community is going to push WAR aside and all meta group comps are going to favor PLD/DRK.

I'd much rather be rid of Shake It Off and get something like Thrill of War. Honestly, I'd much rather all three tanks bring some kind of unique party-wide utility in addition to standardized utility; i.e. slashing resist down being applied from a second-stage weapon skill combo, and a standardized damage down debuff being applied from a third-stage. This FotM nonsense has to end, and the developers need to think long and hard about how to give options in the form of party-wide contributions from PLD, DRK, and WAR alike.

[TankEngine]

the developers need to think long and hard about how to give options in the form of party-wide contributions from PLD, DRK, and WAR alike.

This so much. Just a clear, basic design philosophy as to why you pick each tank class. Like:

WAR - Single-target, great at DPS against one target but worse at large group pulls.

PAL - Crowd control, great at handling large groups, DPS against single target isn't great.

DRK - Interference, great at preventing mechanics, shutting down enemies, so on. Maybe a more subtle play style than the other two.

I'm not saying those are THE ideal ways to design them, but there needs to be that kind of thinking. Then, different tanks will have different specialties for different situations, but they'll all be useful in raid groups and normal content.

[P4X0R10N]

I was thinking about this too. Honestly I'd like to see them move towards wow tank archetypes.

Paladin being damage mitigation and casted heals aka paladin

Dark knight being more blood death knights with corruption debuff and leeching like a vampire

Warriors more savage like druids with more emphasis on high health and instant cast heal over times.