Put VIT back in Tank Damage Calculation.

[Kosmos992k]

Soooooooooooooooo basically what you're suggesting is for tanks to ignore 2/3 of their skillset. Oh wait, you're a Paladin, so clearly you must be doing that anyway.

Great way to reply, shall I leap right in and insult you as well? The point being made is that tanks are first an foremost there to hold aggro, doing DPS and anything else is icing on the cake. If you are having a hard time doing your basic role, then it's time to scale back on the optional elements of what you are doing and focus on the core elements.

As someone who's played Paladin since ARR launched, I don't give a crap for your opinion of me. Maybe though if you weren't so wedded to your opinions you could understand that the essence of playing well is to understand your core role, make sure you nail it, and then expand from there. You appear to want to start from an all out DPS point of view (of tanking) and pair back until you manage to hold aggro in most cases. That's fine, but no one should be complaining about holding aggro if the are in turn focusing on DPS and tanking in DPS stance.

[Yahallo]

Um...could it be that too many tanks got too used to running in DPS stance all the time rather than treating DPS stance as a luxury? Could it be that many tanks took their ability to hold aggro for granted and forgot that their primary responsibility is maintaining aggro? When I stepped into the first SB dungeon that's how it felt to me, it was like going back to ARR and hitting Brayflox in average gear. Every now and again, people should go minimum ilvl and try out dungeons to remind themselves how they are meant to play their jobs, or just never get used to the luxury of overgearing by 50+ ilvls.

It's not that tanks got used to running in DPS Stance; I've been throwing out 3-4 Abyssal Drains at the start of each pull in Grit and I can still see DPS starting to rip aggro off me. I can often keep it down by throwing another Abyssal Drain but that is a band aid fix when the issue will get worse and worse as ilvl increases and the damage gap between Tanks and DPS increases. Right now it may be manageable, but this is a serious long term issue as DPS get primary stat damage scaling from their accessories while tanks do not. This isn't because people got used to tanking in their DPS Stance, this is because the Vit+Str damage formula for tanks should have been kept or at least adjusted so that Vit increases the amount of enmity generated. It is not an issue of people getting used to the luxury of overgearing.

Single target enmity generation is fine at the moment, but AoE enmity generation has a problem that is rearing its head. This isn't just the Western Community asking for changes, but both the Western and Japanese communities, and given how much more serious the Japanese community can be (like believing that Duty Finder is not for first time runs but to get a quick clear when you're busy, having large amounts of party finder groups dedicated to teaching newbies, and the 2ch blacklist), there should be enough precedent for some changes to be expected.

[Kosmos992k]

It's not that tanks got used to running in DPS Stance; I've been throwing out 3-4 Abyssal Drains at the start of each pull in Grit and I can still see DPS starting to rip aggro off me. I can often keep it down by throwing another Abyssal Drain but that is a band aid fix when the issue will get worse and worse as ilvl increases and the damage gap between Tanks and DPS increases. Right now it may be manageable, but this is a serious long term issue as DPS get primary stat damage scaling from their accessories while tanks do not. This isn't because people got used to tanking in their DPS Stance, this is because the Vit+Str damage formula for tanks should have been kept or at least adjusted so that Vit increases the amount of enmity generated. It is not an issue of people getting used to the luxury of overgearing.

Single target enmity generation is fine at the moment, but AoE enmity generation has a problem that is rearing its head. This isn't just the Western Community asking for changes, but both the Western and Japanese communities, and given how much more serious the Japanese community can be (like believing that Duty Finder is not for first time runs but to get a quick clear when you're busy, having large amounts of party finder groups dedicated to teaching newbies, and the 2ch blacklist), there should be enough precedent for some changes to be expected.

Which DPS are ripping hate? I've only had specific trouble with RDM going hog wild, or RDM & SAM splitting targets, Even then, flash spame and rotating targets keeps things sensible.

From my point of view, there are some balance issues, but non of that alters the basic point which is that we can hold aggro, if we focus on it. It might now be exactly how we want to play though. AoE aggro management would be OK if DPS would coordinate instead of doing their best to burn down different targets from each other.

I don't disagree about the need for changes to our ATTACK formulation, and enmity boosts are always nice, but so far, apart from the kind of rude awakening at the start, I've been able to hold hate pretty solidly.

Last thing. I understand that going back to the VIT/STR pairing for attack strength is suggested since it was that way before. But I think that we'd be better off leaving VIT as an HP/resistance kind of stat, and instead looking to Tenacity. A 50/50 split with Tenacity and STR would encourage tanks to use their role statistic more, and stack materia for it. Since it does 3 different things for us, that would appear to me to be the best way to go - but based on the player testing so far it's almost negligible in impact and would need something like a 5 fold increase in impact in order to have any real impact.

[Lewtskie]

Even then, flash spame and rotating targets keeps things sensible.

From my point of view, there are some balance issues, but non of that alters the basic point which is that we can hold aggro, if we focus on it. It might now be exactly how we want to play though. AoE aggro management would be OK if DPS would coordinate instead of doing their best to burn down different targets from each other.

Well that's just it, isn't it? I like tanking as tanking, I like the role, but when I can only do my BB combo with an OP in-between and SC whenever its really bad, it's not much fun and a little nerve wracking. Like a Healer that can only pop their primary and secondary cures because the tank is taking so much damage they have no room for much else. Sure, in all technicality we are operating within our designed parameters, but you can't expect everyone to say "This is fun."

And we also should not have to rely on DPS coordinating themselves. Be this a multiplayer game, but in PUG content it's bad design to have to fall on such reliance.

Enmity on tank is a group effort. All SB is doing is reminding everyone of that.

Will be great if you can convince every DPS to do so, but until then expecting people to deal with it until someone who is not them gets their job together is a way bad way to think.

[Yahallo]

Which DPS are ripping hate? I've only had specific trouble with RDM going hog wild, or RDM & SAM splitting targets, Even then, flash spame and rotating targets keeps things sensible.

From my point of view, there are some balance issues, but non of that alters the basic point which is that we can hold aggro, if we focus on it. It might now be exactly how we want to play though. AoE aggro management would be OK if DPS would coordinate instead of doing their best to burn down different targets from each other.

I don't disagree about the need for changes to our ATTACK formulation, and enmity boosts are always nice, but so far, apart from the kind of rude awakening at the start, I've been able to hold hate pretty solidly.

Last thing. I understand that going back to the VIT/STR pairing for attack strength is suggested since it was that way before. But I think that we'd be better off leaving VIT as an HP/resistance kind of stat, and instead looking to Tenacity. A 50/50 split with Tenacity and STR would encourage tanks to use their role statistic more, and stack materia for it. Since it does 3 different things for us, that would appear to me to be the best way to go - but based on the player testing so far it's almost negligible in impact and would need something like a 5 fold increase in impact in order to have any real impact.

Any DPS played optimally, dealing upwards of 4-5k DPS compared to Tanks whom I have seen at best deal within the 2-3k range, can rip aggro. A key note I would like to mention is how you are going under the context of the current situation; I feel like people aren't looking at this long term, when the damage gap becomes even higher and thus making maintaining aggro even harder. The real problem isn't the now but the future, when the ilvl is higher than it is now; I remember earlier (not sure if it was this thread or another) that someone looked at the pattern of stat increases on gear and predicted the amount of Str we would have at future ilvls. Under their predictions, at i390, DPS would have more than 1000 Str more than a Tank using Vit accessories; that's more than a 1000 point difference in attack power compared to the 4-500 we have right now. Also, doing things like Flash spam shouldn't be required, especially when it becomes mind numbing and people leave the tank role because they don't get to use the full extent of their kit as they are too busy spamming enmity generation, thus causing longer queues for other roles and negatively affecting the overall health of the game.

Depending on Tenacity is not a good idea as secondary stats are not guaranteed on gear. To have a secondary stat having a higher weight than a primary stat is just strange and awkward; not to mention how it would basically have to be present on every gear piece like primary stats are. That said, Tenacity does need a boost as a secondary stat because those tests are showing that it is having rather negligible effects.

[NinefoldRakshasa]

Good thing we can still equip the Proto Ultima Strenghts accessories, to spite all the "Tanks shouldn't do damage" shitters.
And even if they find out they can't kick us since they'll have to wait an eternity for another tank.
Deal with it ^-~

[Venjenz]

Seems to me the problem is more player meta than it is job/stat changes. Seems SE is moving SB away from the "everyone is AE deepz" speed running meta of HW, and moving towards a proper group dynamic where enmity staying on tank IS A GROUP EFFORT. Used to be everyone goes HAM, and tanks clown on how easy enmity is, even undergeared, gimped, 5+ levels lower than DPS, wielding wooden spoon, uphill both ways, always in DPS stance, etc. Now holding aggro is harder and DPS have to actually watch their own enmity meters. OMFG, the horror!!

Enmity on tank is a group effort. All SB is doing is reminding everyone of that.

[Morzy]

It's not just tank. Look at SCH and all of those fairy nerfs. It's pretty clear to me that SE wants tanks and healers to stop pretending like they're a DPS class.

[NinefoldRakshasa]

It's not just tank. Look at SCH and all of those fairy nerfs. It's pretty clear to me that SE wants tanks and healers to stop pretending like they're a DPS class.

More like they want people to stop playing tanks and healers.

[Valkyrie_Lenneth]

More like they want people to stop playing tanks and healers.

Personally one of the reasons I wanted to switch from tank to dps was because of the "Tanks must have leet deeps" mentality the XIV community has. Now I don't have that problem anymore, since its a DPS job to do leet deeps, and im a dps now. So if this had happened before 4.0, i'd probably still be tanking. Oh well.