(HW spoilers) Dragon eyes.

[YianKutku]

This is probably one of those questions that got answered back when the 3.x Dragonsong series was still brand new, but I didn't think of it until very recently (and I wasn't around until 3.4 anyway), and I'm just now starting the 3.x series of MSQ.

Essentially, how do dragon eyes work? More specifically, how much influence does a dragon have over their eyes after they've been removed?

I might be mistaken, and please do point it out if I am, but as far as I know, the timeline kind of goes like this:

The Dragonsong war started about a thousand years ago (circa 550 of the Sixth Astral Era, according to the lorebook). King Thordan and his knights killed Ratatoskr and ate her eyes, and gouged out both of Nidhogg's eyes as well. Haldrath is remorseful, and takes one of Nidhogg's eyes, leaving the other in the care of the other knights, who become the ruling class of Ishgard.

So Nidhogg Eye 1 is with Haldrath, and Nidhogg Eye 2 is with Ishgard. Presumably Nidhogg Eye 1 is the one Estinien carries around in the present day, as a plot token in the 30-50 Dragoon Job Quests, and the Heavensward MSQ.

Nidhogg Eye 2 is then revealed in the Singularity Reactor cutscene with Archbishop Thordan and his knights, having been interred with Haldrath's body. I accept that this may in fact be Nidhogg Eye 1, and Estinien has Nidhogg Eye 2, but the general point remains: as of that moment, both of Nidhogg's eyes are accounted for.

Rewinding time a bit: after the fight with King Thordan a thousand years go, an eyeless Nidhogg limps to Hraesvelgr, and guilt-trips Hraesvelgr into giving Nidhogg one of Hraesvelgr's eyes. Hraesvelgr agrees, and so Nidhogg gains Hraesvelgr Eye 1.

Which means for the thousand years of the Dragonsong War, up until the Warrior of Light comes onto the scene, Nidhogg has been terrorizing Ishgard and stewing in his own hatred while wearing Hraesvelgr Eye 1.

Back in the present day, the WoL and Estinien storm the Aery and slay Nidhogg, recovering Hraesvelgr Eye 1. This is returned to Hraesvelgr.

The rest of the MSQ happens, and Estinien picks up the discarded Nidhogg Eye 2 in the Singularity Reactor. Since he still has Nidhogg Eye 1, this suddenly overwhelms him, and he turns into Nidhogg (or a shade thereof) and flies off, with his story to be concluded in the 3.3 patch.

Which (finally) brings me to my question: how?

Nidhogg's thousand years of hate is performed with Hraesvelgr Eye 1. Nidhogg's eyes are either in the possession of the current Azure Dragoon, or stuck inside a coffin for a thousand years. I would assume this would cause Hraesvelgr Eye 1 to be steeped in hatred, but Hraesvelgr pops it back into its rightful socket without any apparent ill effect.

Since the betrayal of King Thordan a thousand years ago, Nidhogg has not been in possession of his own eyes. He can presumably influence them in some spooky manner from a distance, since Estinien falls prey to it in the level 50 Dragoon Job Quest, and the whole 30-50 Dragoon Job Questline has to do with Estinien carrying Nidhogg Eye 1 away from Ishgard to draw Nidhogg away. Which, in turn, raises the question of why Nidhogg Eye 1 is a higher priority to Nidhogg than Nidhogg Eye 2, resting in the heart of Ishgard.

One possible explanation I can think of is Nidhogg's pain and rage at the point of being de-eyed was potent enough to taint his eyes permanently, and this is reinforced from a distance over a thousand years through dragon magic or some such. Despite this, Hraesvelgr Eye 1, which Nidhogg is actually in possession of, is not as heavily affected, and the WoL's party suffers no ill effects from delivering it back to Hraesvelgr.

Am I missing something? It's been a while since I did the Heavensward 3.0 MSQ, so I don't know if there's an explanation.

Side question: Thordan and his knights (or possibly just some of them) ate Ratatoskr's eyes. What benefit did this give them? If it's mentioned in the game, I probably forgot.

[Daralii]

It's been years since I looked at the Dragoon 30-50 quests, but I vaguely remember something about Nidhogg being able to see through his eyes even though they were cut from him. It'd suggest that a dragon's eyes are bound to them no matter what, so they'd be infused with Nidhogg's limitless hate over time purely by virtue of being his eyes. It's not exactly surprising if the First Brood are more aetherial like that, considering Midgardsormr can recreate a new body after his death and freely pop in and out of existence.

[LineageRazor]

Side question: Thordan and his knights (or possibly just some of them) ate Ratatoskr's eyes. What benefit did this give them? If it's mentioned in the game, I probably forgot.

I'm actually kind of curious about this, myself. The motivation for eating the eyes was to gain power, but did they ever demonstrate any of that power? Even with twelve knights and a king, whatever power they gained was not enough to stop Nidhogg from slaughtering all but a few of them before they managed to take his eyes and drive him off. Any power that they had would seem to have died with them, as well, as none of their descendants seem to have any unusual abilities.

While betraying the dragons and murdering one of the First Brood was never a GOOD idea, it adds another layer of tragedy if they did all that and got NOTHING out of the bargain!

[saber_alter]

I'm actually kind of curious about this, myself. The motivation for eating the eyes was to gain power, but did they ever demonstrate any of that power? Even with twelve knights and a king, whatever power they gained was not enough to stop Nidhogg from slaughtering all but a few of them before they managed to take his eyes and drive him off. Any power that they had would seem to have died with them, as well, as none of their descendants seem to have any unusual abilities.

They do. the dragon blood from the eyes has so permeated the Ishgard populace, anyone Ishgard borne who ingests dragon blood will literally turn into a dragon.

[thegreatonemal]

I'm actually kind of curious about this, myself. The motivation for eating the eyes was to gain power, but did they ever demonstrate any of that power? Even with twelve knights and a king, whatever power they gained was not enough to stop Nidhogg from slaughtering all but a few of them before they managed to take his eyes and drive him off. Any power that they had would seem to have died with them, as well, as none of their descendants seem to have any unusual abilities.

While betraying the dragons and murdering one of the First Brood was never a GOOD idea, it adds another layer of tragedy if they did all that and got NOTHING out of the bargain!

It did make them more powerful which is why they were able to fight Nidhogg straight up out in the open.

[LineageRazor]

They do. the dragon blood from the eyes has so permeated the Ishgard populace, anyone Ishgard borne who ingests dragon blood will literally turn into a dragon.

I think I'd consider that more of a side-effect than a special power. But yes, you're right, I hadn't considered the turn-into-a-dragon thing. I'm guessing that if that's the only takeaway from eating eyes, though, I doubt Thordan and his knights would have been too keen!

It did make them more powerful which is why they were able to fight Nidhogg straight up out in the open.

I touched on this in my post - while they WERE able to take on Nidhogg, it was thirteen versus one, and they suffered enormous casualties. While Nidhogg was among the toughest of dragons, I think it can be assumed that Thordan's knights were the crème of the crop among Ishgardian Elezen, even before they ate the eyes. I suspect that even unenhanced, the king and his knights would have been a match for Nidhogg.

Even if I were to agree that Nidhogg was simply overwhelming enough that the power of the eyes turned what would have been a slaughter into a pyrrhic victory, enough power to defeat (not even kill!) one dragon while suffering staggering losses does NOT seem like it would be something worth shattering centuries of harmonious coexistence with the dragons. Thordan was clearly expecting something a whole lot more substantial when he slew Ratatoskr. He expected to be able to get away with his crime, that none would be a match for him and his knights - and the power he obtained, if any, was far short of that.

It's certainly possible that Thordan was simply mistaken. Perhaps consuming the eyes of a dragon transfers only a fraction of that dragon's power (in the MSQ, best results from using eyes seems to be wielding them whole and uneaten). Perhaps the whole idea was nonsense to begin with; Thordan, delusional with envy, latched onto an unsubstantiated rumor, and got nothing out of the bargain except a curse for the few of his men to survive (the blood-drinking transformation). It's undeniable that whatever he was hoping for, he expected it to be enough to weather the dragons' retaliation, and it clearly was not.

[Astrid_Stormborn]

Perhaps the whole idea was nonsense to begin with; Thordan, delusional with envy, latched onto an unsubstantiated rumor, and got nothing out of the bargain except a curse for the few of his men to survive (the blood-drinking transformation). It's undeniable that whatever he was hoping for, he expected it to be enough to weather the dragons' retaliation, and it clearly was not.

Sadly, he was well informed-

Of the first brood, she was the perhaps the most curious, and worked passionately to establish a lasting peace with man. Alas, she did not fathom the depth of mortals' avarice, and rashly revealed to King Thordan the secret of the wyrms' power. Emboldened, the regent would ultimately betray Ratatoskr's trust and slay the wyrm for her eyes and the strength they might provide.

[YianKutku]

Perhaps consuming the eyes of a dragon transfers only a fraction of that dragon's power (in the MSQ, best results from using eyes seems to be wielding them whole and uneaten).

To be fair, the power of Ratatoskr's eyes may have been split thirteen ways, rather than one (in Estinien's case in the Aery) or possibly eight (for the WoL in Final Steps). Still, for all the much-vaunted potency of dragon eyes, this does seem weak.

As a note, the lorebook states that in 6A 550 (ie not long after King Thordan's betrayal), Ishgard used the power of twenty-four dragon eyes to erect Daniffen's Collar, which theoretically protects against Nidhogg and his brood. As we've seen in the game, this is not always effective, but the wards stood for a thousand years, which implies some substantial power from these dragon eyes, which I assume to be comparatively lesser than the First Brood.

It's possible Daniffen's Collar was reinforced through the years by replenishing it with more dragon eyes, which makes me wonder if every nameless dragon slain by the WoL in their journey through Dravania has their eyes looted by Ishgardians following close behind.

[BristolRuss]

I just hope that the Ascians/Garleans/whoever doesn't figure out that there are two perfectly good First Brood dragon eyes just chilling in Azys Lla ready for a good plucking. It's not as if the owner could do much to stop anyone taking them either, given the predicament that they are in.

[YianKutku]

I just hope that the Ascians/Garleans/whoever doesn't figure out that there are two perfectly good First Brood dragon eyes just chilling in Azys Lla ready for a good plucking. It's not as if the owner could do much to stop anyone taking them either, given the predicament that they are in.

I think it was implied that Tiamat could break free if she wanted to, but she's too busy wallowing in misery to bother.

Which makes for an interesting dilemma should someone attempt to take her eyes: she might not resist if someone were to try to do so, but since doing so would effectively kill her, she might not want that, since she evidently feels she hasn't suffered enough for her sin of helping summon Primal Bahamut.