SAM out classing all other DPS

[Kaiden019]

Off topic but related: This thread is an excellent argument why parsers would be bad for this game. Even when they are disallowed, people are throwing numbers around, will little context, in order to get a perceived overpowered job nerfed. Guys, don't you think Square Enix has a lot more data than we could ever compile about the performance of samurai versus the other damage dealers? Let them tweak the numbers. Our part in this is to let them know we believe there is too big a gap between the damage dealing jobs.

To be fair that's basically what were doing right now. We are using numbers from a parse. Just not an official one.

SAM isn't an issue of who deals more damage, we can comfortably say that SAM deals the most, but people seem to have an issue with one DPS being designed to be stronger than the others. If SAM wasn't top of the charts they would be completely useless, it's not hard to understand.

[BlackThought]

To be fair that's basically what were doing right now. We are using numbers from a parse. Just not an official one.

SAM isn't an issue of who deals more damage, we can comfortably say that SAM deals the most, but people seem to have an issue with one DPS being designed to be stronger than the others. If SAM wasn't top of the charts they would be completely useless, it's not hard to understand.

Feels to me that some people are arguing about degrees while others are pretending they're talking absolutes, which is always how these things go.

Moreover, the idea that the devs know better than the community has almost never borne out in real life. The community decides the meta, always.

[MiruWest]

The problem is, even with utility, jobs like Monk can't keep up at all with the extra damage a SAM brings.
Monk does less than a ninja now, and on top of that their utility is severely limiting and RNG based. I could see if the difference is numbers was made up in utility, but it's not.

MNK is the 2nd highest DPS of the melee sitting around 4400k parses. Along with Brotherhood and the right team comp a MNK is shine. 4400 is not that far behind a SAM at 4600 when you still have utility skills not yet factored in.

Its like MNK's complained about not being brought to raids because of lack of utility and now you got it, yet proceed to complain about why you arnt the top DPS while STILL having said utility.

I believe in a utility bubble every class is where it needs to be. DRG and NIN are similar as they both have a lot of utility, MNK is next highest with some but not much utility, while SAM has none and is at the top.

[EbonySeraphim]

This thread is an excellent argument why parsers would be bad for this game.

I think you kind of just suggested "ignorance is bliss" and "let those with all the power do what's best for us." I think Square is quite capable but they aren't impervious to making balance mistakes just like Blizzard didn't make Starcraft II perfectly balanced on release despite having craptons of data (running full on tournaments before full release). Also, though the tone of this thread is contentious, I don't see many people suggesting SAM should be nerfed necessarily. Rather that the other melee DPS jobs(DRG and MNKs really) have it tough with skills that are far more lackluster to use (requiring either luck, or raid-like coordination with another player) just to potentially catch up to the DPS advantage gained by simply playing SAM.

Does having a physical DPS heavy composition + 5% damage with a Monk allow the extra Forbidden Chakra's every 90 seconds catch up to what SAM offers or does it pass it? I''d say considering it's a more restrictive party composition, it should do noticeably more than simply having a SAM. The 10% damage increase and 5% to one other player from Dragon sight should be more beneficial than replacing the DRG with a SAM considering how restrictive and limited it is to use in the first place. DRG still has Battle Litany for that boost too, but Mantra is quite irrelevant if the healers can keep folks alive regardless of it. Let SAM be personal DPS king, but let higher effort + coordination yield better results by at least a noticeable margin.

[MiruWest]

snip

The thing is tho people are looking at personal numbers and not raid numbers. People see SAM at 4600 and DRG at 4200 and think DRG needs a potency buff yet they dont actually look at the damage increase the DRG is giving to the raid because I guess its not numbers you physically see on the meter. A DRG bringing Disembowel, Battle Litany, Dragon Sight, is a sizeable amount of extra dps the DRG brings to the raid across mutiple team members, yet people forget that and think the DRG should do almost as much DPS as the SAM and STILL bring that exact type of utility to the raid which literally brings us back to 3.0 MNK.

[Selova]

Off topic but related: This thread is an excellent argument why parsers would be bad for this game. Even when they are disallowed, people are throwing numbers around, will little context, in order to get a perceived overpowered job nerfed. Guys, don't you think Square Enix has a lot more data than we could ever compile about the performance of samurai versus the other damage dealers? Let them tweak the numbers. Our part in this is to let them know we believe there is too big a gap between the damage dealing jobs.

You do realize that there is no way for us,to let them know about damage gaps between jobs without parses right? Parsers already exist and tons of people use them.

[Kacho_Nacho]

I think you kind of just suggested "ignorance is bliss" and "let those with all the power do what's best for us." I think Square is quite capable but they aren't impervious to making balance mistakes just like Blizzard didn't make Starcraft II perfectly balanced on release despite having craptons of data (running full on tournaments before full release). *snippety snip*

Well, it's actually more like "quit jumping to conclusions based on hearsay and letting those erroneous conclusions get in the way of your enjoyment of the game" and "we have no means of seeing all the data SE in accumulating. They are in a better position to make decisions than us."

Anyhow, it's possible things need tweaked. I don't want to see the pitchfork and torches mob dumping on the players of samurai nor do I want to see players get into this meta headset and start trying to exclude jobs like machinists and dragoon from raiding.

The balance doesn't matter for in the majority of the game. If a party isn't in the cutting edge of raiding, it doesn't matter who you bring to deal damage.

That's all I'm saying.

You do realize that there is no way for us,to let them know about damage gaps between jobs without parses right? Parsers already exist and tons of people use them.

But, people aren't supposed to be using parsers. SE has already made that clear.

In addition, parsers are notoriously prone to misinterpretation. Players cherrypick information that supports their arguments all the time in WoW. This is what SE is trying to avoid.

This thread was originally a troll's attempt to stir things up and get people thinking samurai should be nerfed. We don't have the information to make that call nor should we ever have that level of information.

We are not the game designers. We are the players. This isn't game play by democracy or mob rule.

SE make those calls. They decide what is balanced and what is not. Our part in this, is to play the game and offer our observations and criticisms. They receive our input then decide what to do from there.

[Bardo]

The amount of hyperbole in this thread is absolutely staggering.
A class is "trash tier" if they do 2% less dps?
/facepalm

[Nominous]

I believe in a utility bubble every class is where it needs to be. DRG and NIN are similar as they both have a lot of utility, MNK is next highest with some but not much utility, while SAM has none and is at the top.

Pretty much the thoughts I've been sharing. A single number is not a great representation of a Job, or the balance of said Job. Any tier, or ranking list should always account for more than just that, like your post.

And to be clear, there are Jobs that need love in 4.0. Some of them more dire than others, and I think that's important to realize. And I think everyone knows that, for the most part. But to say SAM outclasses them is probably an inappropriate way to approach the situation. They outclass the other Job's damage (if played right), but not their support, ease of play, or flexibility in 'all' content (we'll have to see with Omega). That's far more accurate based on the content we've seen so far.

[HoLoFoNo]

The problem is, even with utility, jobs like Monk can't keep up at all with the extra damage a SAM brings.
Monk does less than a ninja now, and on top of that their utility is severely limiting and RNG based. I could see if the difference is numbers was made up in utility, but it's not.

I'm not sure what you have seen, but I'm pretty sure MNK does around the same as ninja without BH (RNG dependent because lolmnk) and from the SSS dummy HP this was the intention. With the 2-3 extra forbidden chakras (again RNG dependent) every 90 seconds MNK is actually stronger than NIN at least on paper.