SAM out classing all other DPS

[EdwinLi]

People can stop being sheep and just play the jobs they like. Whether SAM gets nerfed or not, I know I'll follow it to the end. Because it's simply the job that I actually like.

Sadly Sleeping will never stop since a good amount of people who play MMOs are prone to go after what is considered the one with the Biggest Number.

Honestly, I am playing Samurai and making it my main because I have always been one who enjoys the Speed Sword type Class/Job in RPG/MMO even long before I discovered the Samurai Job in any video game. Always been the person who made their character aim for high speed and damage with a sword before I discovered Gun class/job.

Everytime I play a RPG/MMO the first thing I am to play first is the Speed Sword type class/Job in the game but of course it is double edged as certain games make or break the Speed sword type class/jobs either by making them too weak or too strong.

It always seem to be difficult for most developers to balance a Speed Sword class/job.

[HyoMinPark]

No tank has an aggro problem, unless you're in dungeons and both dps ST a different mob in a pack, or you're in raid trying to optimize dps while your co-tank doesn't know how to shirk.

It's completely likely to get tanks that cannot manage aggro well. I have met many in DF lately that lose aggro to me while I am AOEing a large trash pack, because they fail to rotate properly between mobs. Just want to point out that there are tanks out there that have aggro problems.


With regards to this thread topic, SAM is the highest in terms of personal DPS. But they have absolutely no raid utility whatsoever to bring to the table other than that raw damage. They don't provide any buffs that other jobs don't already have, and they cannot provide any sort of party support functions (e.g., MP or TP refresh like BRD/MCH). I personally don't think they need to be nerfed. Let there be a big deeps DPS job; just because SAM outshines BRD in terms of personal DPS doesn't mean that I find BRD any less appealing or enjoyable (besides, I got used to being low on the DPS totem pole until the end of Heavensward when BRDs had some of the highest personal DPS providing they had all the right conditions). If I want to see big-dick numbers, I break out SAM. If I want to play a job I am the most familiar and comfortable with, I break out BRD. That won't change for me, and I doubt it would change for anyone else who has a non-SAM main.

(Though, I do still go .___. at SE adding a second MNK to the game after they commented on how MNK had such a lack of raid utility.)

[RichardButte]

The only one missing the point is you. It's been explained twice now, that their high damage is to make up for its lack of utility.

The real question is going to be, however, whether or not this matters in actual raiding situations.

And TBH, I'm not sure how they're going to manage to pull that off. I can see why BRD would bring a lot to the table with it's raid wide crit buff and whatnot, but not every DPS has something on par with that.

And if they don't, the question remains: why not play SAM?

[HyoMinPark]

The real question is going to be, however, whether or not this matters in actual raiding situations.

I'm guessing that groups that want speedy kills with high DPS/inflated parses will pick a SAM for their group. If for nothing else than for those inflated group parser numbers.

It will be interesting to see what the new raid meta will look like. Some jobs, I feel, have already solidified their spots in raid metas (such as BRD because of its immense utility, and AST because everyone loves Balances). For the others, it will be interesting to see how the meta develops.

[Shurrikhan]

This is such a simple situation, I'm not understanding how blind people are to why SAM is balanced the way it is.

So. Let's say they brought everyone closer to Samurai damage. Let's say SAM does... at BEST, 10% more damage than the next best Job. Why bring SAM for 10% more damage, when you could have Battle Litany for the WHOLE PARTY, and Dragon Sight? Why bring SAM when you could have Trick Attack FOR THE WHOLE PARTY? Why bring SAM when you could have Brotherhood and Mantra FOR THE WHOLE PARTY?

Not taking sides here, but just to throw out a metric:

For sake of simple example, lets say that with everything perfectly balanced, each DPS contributes 18% of the raid's DPS, each healer 6%, the OT 12% and the MT 10%. Trick Attack, with used perfect uptime, would produce an additional 1.67% raid DPS. However, so would any of those DPS dealing just 9.28% more personal DPS. That's on average, though, of course. Should a disproportionate (above average) amount of damage fall within the Trick Attack window, as it should, that amount increases, possibly to the range of 11% or so. Of course, to a smaller extent, the same can then be said of raid contribution from an AST when given a 9-11% more efficient Enhanced/Extended Balance/Arrow target.

Yes, SAM should be significantly stronger. The question is should it really *just* be about personal DPS, which would curtail the chance of balance in any serious lower-man content, should that ever be a possibility, and ultimately makes some aspects of raiding with a SAM less interesting ("Who wants Balance/Arrow?! Oh wait, you're not the SAM...").

[Nominous]

Not taking sides here, but just to throw out a metric:

For sake of simple example, lets say that with everything perfectly balanced, each DPS contributes 18% of the raid's DPS, each healer 6%, the OT 12% and the MT 10%. Trick Attack, with used perfect uptime, would produce an additional 1.67% raid DPS. However, so would any of those DPS dealing just 9.28% more personal DPS. That's on average, though, of course. Should a disproportionate (above average) amount of damage fall within the Trick Attack window, as it should, that amount increases, possibly to the range of 11% or so. Of course, to a smaller extent, the same can then be said of raid contribution from an AST when given a 9-11% more efficient Enhanced/Extended Balance/Arrow target.

Yes, SAM should be significantly stronger.he question is should it really *just* be about personal DPS, which would curtail the chance of balance in any serious lower-man content, should that ever be a possibility, and ultimately makes some aspects of raiding with a SAM less interesting ("Who wants Balance/Arrow?! Oh wait, you're not the SAM...").

Well, it's an interesting discussion to be had, surely. Given my previous examples of the kinds of utility and party support/synergy options in the game, there's not much room for creativity in creating a job that has a place in a raid environment without them. The most 'creative', and that's hard to say with a straight face, utility they could have given to Samurai was a high amount of damage. It's difficult to balance, but that was their decision. I think the impetuous is on them to maintain the identity of a job, and what makes a job fun, or attractive to certain players. That is what I think they failed on, not the balance of Samurai.

I remember back in coil, our BRD was consistently like 80-100 dps below me (at the time that meant he was at about 480 dps while I was at like 560 or so as a DRG. When I was MNK, I was closer to 600, which was far above BRD. Does it mean it was okay? In my opinion- yes. Their identity wasn't all about dealing the highest damage. They had easier rotations, if you even want to call it that, and they brought a lot of much needed support. If you can clear with these numbers, and a good player can close the gap a little better through skill, it should be fine, as long as they are having fun with the fantasy of the job. So, for BLM, yes, they should have crazy damage. BRD should deal less damage but offer more support. MCH probably deserves more damage, I see them as heavier damage dealers, etc etc.

[Shurrikhan]

Well, it's an interesting discussion to be had, surely. Given my previous examples of the kinds of utility and party support/synergy options in the game, there's not much room for creativity in creating a job that has a place in a raid environment without them. The most 'creative', and that's hard to say with a straight face, utility they could have given to Samurai was a high amount of damage. It's difficult to balance, but that was their decision. I think the impetuous is on them to maintain the identity of a job, and what makes a job fun, or attractive to certain players. That is what I think they failed on, not the balance of Samurai.

Completely agreed. Pure damage was almost the only unique contribution method left, now that Monk has Brotherhood (though one could say this simply took the place of Dragon Kick). I think we'll still need to see each job played optimally in a larger variety of content before we can affirm its balance, but the damage itself certainly doesn't break that, so long as they are only trying to balance one party size and allotment—the 2/4/2 8-man.

I'd argue that, if fights were permitted greater complexity, there's actually a lot that DPS could do with a faintly off-tank-ish toolkit, which I actually think both Monk and Samurai would make good candidates for, just as there might be for further mob positioning control (looking at the currently useless Earth Tackle, Blank, FA), kiting, or buff stripping (previously of One-Ilm Punch).

[Verius_Nox]

Until more testing is done, I'd only warrant a nerf to samurai's dps if it was so good, it's better to stack them, but as of right now, if you're playing anything else but samurai, be prepared to be the samurai's little bicboi buff bot.

[Nominous]

I'd argue that, if fights were permitted greater complexity, there's actually a lot that DPS could do with a faintly off-tank-ish toolkit, which I actually think both Monk and Samurai would make good candidates for, just as there might be for further mob positioning control (looking at the currently useless Earth Tackle, Blank, FA), kiting, or buff stripping (previously of One-Ilm Punch).

We'll have to see. Though, in the grand scheme of things, I really don't think balancing fights to enable use of niche Jobs or tools is much better. I mean, they did that to specifically cater to DRK, and that was... not exactly fair, even if it was to encourage people to play the new Job.

In any case, SAM doesn't even have a CC option outside of cross role, so it's as bare bones as it gets and still wouldn't compete in the same sense that MNK might find use. Unfortunately, unless they plan on drastically changing one of their abilities, literally all SAM has is damage. It's unique in possibly one of the worst ways, because this has never found footing in XIV. DRG was considered the 'pure' DPS that offered nothing in 2.0, and was relatively unpopular (for other reasons as well). MNK was considered the 'pure' DPS that offered nothing in 3.0. SAM is the first example of how a Job like that might actually be executed, but with outcry against it, it'll just go the same route as all the DPS before it, which is getting some form of party buff in a future expansion. It happened to DRG because of 'pure damage' not being enough. It happened to MNK because 'pure damage' wasn't enough. And with the way people want SAM nerfed, or people competing with it, it'll happen the exact. Same. Way.

It's inevitable, and it's super lame, but it's what we'll have to deal with.

[HoLoFoNo]

To be honest, I'm more salty because they made a class that would be popular with all the weeaboos the big epeen class in a pandering sort of way. That being said I think samurai's dps is fine but there is a case to be made with the other melee dps.

Why are they all below the casters except samurai? RDM and SMN also provide pretty good utility in the form of embolden and devotion not to mention they both get raises and rdm has a nice heal. They are also fairly mobile compared to BLM and lack the positionals or fairly precarious play style of a melee dps which is typically why melee dps had the edge in damage.

I admit I'm fairly biased as a DRG because my dps is pretty much closer to the support dps despite my questionable damage utility. Nerfed disembowel for classes that are relatively low anyway and a tether that grants 5% to ONE person with a 16% uptime. Also the range is bad. And with all of this DRG still gets punished damage wise for losing its core mechanic which takes 70 seconds to generate the first time.

The thing is its clear to see what they were going for in terms of the classes dps vs their utility, but I think it was done incorrectly. The disparity between samurai/black mage and the others is gonna increase with gear and pretty much everyone is salty in one way or another at this time.