SAM out classing all other DPS

[Elnidfse]

i still feel (and i have said it on another thread) that we forget a few utility the blm have as caster, like the mana transfert or apocastasis

Except that "utility" isn't what a job is balanced around. And if we're going to bring up apocatastasis and mana shift we might as well bring up Goad and Feint.

[silentwindfr]

goad outside aoe have no utility, when the mana shift can help a healer that is low in mana because of rez and such...in long fight, with the different reduction of cost of tp they have give, invigorate is enough.
and feint most of the time don't work on most monster around.... they are junk skill mostly aimed to pvp since they don't want to make debuff a thing important.

they are balanced around any buff they can bring to the group, from yoshida himself and more important about the fact that the fight can affect your capacity to dps. the blm and such deal more damage per skill for this reason, for cover the time when they need to move. at how much hit a fire 3 or fire 4? you will see that outside midare, most of our skill will be far below... and even midare is asking for a huge setup of 8 GCD (if you don't use meikyo) what ask fire 4? enochian, that can be keep forever now and just a simple fire 3 for get the 3 stack.... 1gcd and 1 skill out gcd... blm have a good dps, that is fiting is role... people need to stop to expect the blm to be top dps, it will never happend, if that was happening it will be the death of every melee.

we had this situation at the release of ARR, when the raid was ranged only... every melee not taken, because the difference in damage was not enough for cover the damage they was expected to take. too much risk not enough gain.

plus i have already pointed that the difference of dps is not that important between ranged and melee, only the sam get a lot more, but for get it, it ask setup and perfect execution. what is far to be simple in many fight.

but i digress...all this debat is because the meta did changed and people hate change... they wasn't expecting a new top dps from the new jobs, big deal if it was not the sam it will have been the monk like always. and in the end, what is important is not the meta but what your group decide to bring, they can play it safe and take only ranged dps and still do well. depending of the skill of the player they can even beat a team that have the "perfect" team. people need to stop to act like children... some jobs really need work on, and the blm is not one of them.

DRG, SMN and MCH need to be worked on, DRK need to be worked on... SCH need some love too...
but blm don't...

[magnanimousCynic]

but blm don't...

I think we do if our best rotation (3.0v2) doesn't cast B4 outside of Opener or Triplecast + LL.

I'm not asking for BLM to be better than SAM, but Umbral Hearts need to do more if we want our SB rotation to beat our 'new' HW rotation.

[Elnidfse]

when the raid was ranged only.

Different time with different mechanics. And it was more 4 BRD than it was 4 BLM. Let's be realistic here.

they are balanced around any buff they can bring to the group, from yoshida himself

Uh what? No

THIS is what Yoshida says himself


http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...80#post4263080

I already touched upon this in my previous LIVE letter, but I'd like to take the opportunity to clarify balance among DPS roles.

Recently, samurai damage has been the subject of much debate, prompting many comparisons between jobs. In bringing samurai in line with other jobs, however, we not only look at solo damage values, but take all of the following into account:

1. Damage dealt when solo.
2. Susceptibility to mechanics (jobs affected more by mechanics deal slightly more solo damage, and vice versa).
3. Ability to raise a full party's total damage.

For instance, dragoon can greatly increase party members' damage, but deals less solo damage than samurai. In contrast, samurai boasts high solo damage, but cannot do much to increase party damage. Things such as the aforementioned susceptibility and the ability to perform ranged attacks are also considered.

We can't say with absolute certainty that the values will be perfect from the start, and it will be difficult to get a feel for the adjustments before they are released alongside Omega: Deltascape (Savage). For now, we will work towards applying those changes deemed necessary to 4.05, and we look forward to your feedback after you have played the raid.

Nowhere does he mention defensive buffs. You know what he does mention? The ability to increase rDPS. You know who also doesn't have the ability to increase rDPS? BLM. So NO. BLM is not fine.

but i digress...all this debate is because the meta did changed and people hate change...

This is happening because people hate the lack of balance. Change has nothing to do with the fact that something is so blatantly unbalanced.

[silentwindfr]

where is unbalanced? a melee outdpsing a ranged? it's like this because it balanced....

a ranged will never be on par with a melee... it was never even in HW the top dps was not a ranged. and it like this for a fair reason... melee must take risk, what the ranged don't need to do. yes, when they move they need to stop dps... great new we need to move far more than you since we can loose dps only by not attacking the right place.

blm will never be on par with SAM you can be sure of this let's wait the live letter or even the patch of tuesday...

I think we do if our best rotation (3.0v2) doesn't cast B4 outside of Opener or Triplecast + LL.

I'm not asking for BLM to be better than SAM, but Umbral Hearts need to do more if we want our SB rotation to beat our 'new' HW rotation.

you realize that some jobs still use the same rotation for age... i will take the monk by example, yes they did get buff that can be droped for up the dps... but all in all, the rotation of the monk did even become simpler than before HW... they did take out 2 potential dot (was expected) leading to a rotation that didn't move outside loose this two dot. the same rotation since ARR.... with two dot less.... amazing! *sighs* i will not pretend to have the knowledge about umbral heart trouble, simply saying this... BLM is not the top priority of the jobs needing attention and like i don't stop to say it, will never be on par with sam.

[Elnidfse]

where is unbalanced

Dragoons exist

a ranged will never be on par with a melee...

A BLM with no job utility should also not be doing less personal DPS than a RDM, never you mind their relation to Ninjas

even in HW the top dps was not a ranged.

That's not even remotely true
Post 3.2 MCH absolutely crushed DPS in most fights on average. It should never be that way, yes, but you're still wrong.

melee must take risk, what the ranged don't need to

Moving 10 yalms to circle behind the boss while still attacking and not being able to attack at all debunk that entire example.

great new we need to move far more than you since we can loose dps only by not attacking the right place.

You do know that there are mechanics that require movement regardless of your proximity to the boss, correct?

[silentwindfr]

you take my word out of context, i have said that dragoon need to be looked at, i have said that smn and mch too... all i have said is blm don't need this much attention and must'nt be at the same level than sam...

why? simple.... if blm can deal as much damage than sam...why bring a ninja, monk, smn, mch, drg, rdm and even sam... it safer to bring a bard and 3 blm
they will dish enough dps for destroy the content with little risk involved to them.... ahh wait... it did happend in the past.... start of ARR, garuda extrem group full ranged, ifrit extrem.... full of ranged... that why the ranged are behind the melee and they are not even far behind that the most amazing... in terms of dps (if we believe fflogs number) the max dps of the blm is almost identical to the one of the monk... the difference of dps average between the monk and the blm is about 250 dps.... the difference with the rdm is about 120 dps...... on 3000+ means the difference with the second best melee dps is about less of 10%

now mark my word, i do feel a few skill of the rdm are too powerfull and need a reduction of potency mostly the oGCD skill that are free skill that dish tons of damage instantly. however the fact that rdm is infront of the blm is tie to the fact that his burst is a melee burst. and even like this the difference of dps is about 120 dps in average and 12-13 dps in max....

however i don't feel is right for the dragoon to be soo low in damage because if we look at the max damage of the dragoon is... almost at the same level of the mch that too need a big boost since it don't have as much boost for the party than the bard...

in my eyes, the rdm must be at the same level than blm and smn must be really close, while the dragoon must be higher than what he is right now. for the sam... honestly i don't know it's one of the jobs that have a very highs skill cap and heavy setup for be able to get the max dps... in terms of difficulty is far higher than ninja since the less moment you can't dps mess up your whole cycle to the point to almost force a reboot of it. but that what make it interesting to play, do it need to be nerfed? i'm not sure, if that happend it will be his death. people will simply say to bring a ninja that will be more interesting or if like some expect a dragoon if the debuff is buffed. leading to a situation we had before the end of HW, where monk was not bring because his lack of...utility. note it's still better than not bring even in dungeon because deemed useless (*bad memory of the V1*)

all i say it's balance is not as simple than say this jobs must be infront... boost the bard and machinist too much and people will fall back into the drg/brd/mch combo pushing outside the other jobs. anyway, all we can do for now is wait the live letter or the patch note for see what they have decided. nerf or buff we will have no real word into it.

like when some jobs have stay subpar for months before see the light.

[Galvuu]

snip

This first part is completely false. Much like right now you don't see BRD+3xSAM or NIN+3xSAM even though SAM does insane dps (SAM isn't even the strongest dps job right now). A job would need to be insanely broken to justify stacking three of it. And if that happened, people- and myself included for absolute sure- would (rightfully) be asking for nerfs. Just because this might've happened in 2.0 doesn't mean it was right, and it also does not mean it'll happen now. 2.0 was a broken mess where people stacked BRDs and stacked PLDs. Where WAR and DRG were utter junk. Why even bring that broken mess up?
You're so biased it hurts. I can't even argue your points because they aren't point.
Your corollary is "melee must be the strongest dps jobs in the game" just because. People are advocating (mostly) for equality between all 9 jobs when you account for their raid dps and personal dps contribution.
You outright state that you want melee indisputably on top.
And what pains me is that they already are on top- one of the strongest comps (and has like the fastest kills on Susie too) is triple melee. But this is fine for you.

If BLM deals a lot less damage than SAM, why bring BLM? If SMN has less dps and utility than NIN, why bring SMN?
That's right, you don't. You don't bring these jobs right now. That's why people don't bring SMN or BLM (or MCH, or DRG). But that's fine for you, isn't it? That's how it should be for you. So long as melee as 2/3 guaranteed spots of out the 4, it's fine.

And, on a personal level, it makes it worse for me because when people call for SAM nerfs, I always go against them. I think that SAM in its current form is a god send, because when you compare SAM, MNK, NIN, RDM and BRD you have the full spectrum of pure dps to pure utility being represented. You can grab four of those 5 and have a composition that's equally strong. You can have variable levels of utility VS personal dps and they're very evenly matched. Yes, a certain comp will be better for a given fight, but these combinations are so close. They actually did it now (unlike in HW).
They just need to use these 5 as they are- RDM and SAM included- and use them to fix the other four jobs (NIN is a bit suspect- it's the one job that might need to be toned down).

And why would you bring a "bard and 3 blm"? You do understand that the old Foe Requiem no longer exists, right? You do understand that only SMN has a magic-specific buff, compared to the two melee-specific buffs we have, correct?
The whole "RDM and BLM" or "RDM and SMN" being the same thing is just so... dishonest, really.
Not to mention SMN and BLM were "subpar/undesirable" through half of 3.4, all of 3.5 and came out slightly worse than they were in 4.0. You mention MNK at the end of HW, but guess who also had no damage utility and kept being left out? That's right. The casters. Did you notice that the "meta" comp had two melee jobs at that time? That's half the dps contribution.
We've been dealing with this for like a year...
(And DRGs had to deal with this through a lot of ARR... and MCH in 3.0/3.1... none of these situations are right, and what we have now isn't right. We must strive for a state of the game where everyone can get an equal shot and equal reward. Is it almost impossible? Yes. That's why we must be vigilant and continuously strive to reach that point)

And please stop looking at the 99%/Max percentiles. Those are padded runs with dedicated comps. That max isn't "the best performance a job can get".
It's "let's see how many enhanced Balances the AST can pull during my burst". People refer to these parses as if they were indicative of anything, and that really shows a lack of knowledge about how thing operate at that end of the spectrum in 90% of the cases.
Look at the 90% percentile if you want a clear picture.

EDIT: And to you in particular, I play god damned MNK at 70, so don't tell me to "play a melee". Second time I have to bring this up, too. It has challenging aspects, like any job (that's not RDM) has challenging aspects. Don't come tell me BLM is "not difficult" to execute. It feels like I need to get 90%+ percentile parses on MNK so people take me seriously. I am gearing my MNK up, so that's coming up relatively soon, but Christ almighty, this is the third job I'm collecting parses on to have people not tell me "play X well before you say Y". Actually, let me reverse this to you- you pick up a caster and trash some raids, since you're so "sorry" that ranged is "so easy".

[silentwindfr]

Dude it did happend in the past, while the 2.x series... you can try to say it's not possible it did happend and will happend if you put blm top dps. because people want easy fast victory, plus sam is not that easy to top dps. it's why a lot of team prefer take other dps instead of the sam. because if the sam do poorly the damage is not that good.

about the 3.4-3.5 do we must talk of the monk situation then? because it did lead to that crappy build we did get.

about the number of fflogs, yes they are partial number, not the best number, but they are still number that can serve to get a good idea of what is POSSIBLE with a jobs... plus i'm more using the average where the monk (second best dps) have only 250 dps more than black mage what is less of 10% of his dps... and you seems to ignore this because it make all your voicing not relevant anymore.

plus you seems to not wanting to acknowledge that some player are here for very long and have seen what it happend when ranged is superior to melee... it did happend and did lead to some critical situation. that why i'm against the idea of a ranged that can be superior to melee. for protect balance and keep the choice to bring jobs that often recquire more skill for be played than ranged. ninja is a perfect example of melee that recquire far more skill than blm for top dps... do i feel jobs like mch need to deal more damage because harder to play? yes... definitivly. in my eyes, mch is screwed because of the role skill that give him utility, when in terms of solo utility he have about the same than ninja.

ps: i invite to try to play melee for see the truth, to play melee in endgame and try to strive for deal the best of your dps... and i'm not talking of the one from fflogs, but simply your top dps you can get by yourself... not on dummy, but in fight... you will notice that it far to be easy... far more complicate that it seems when you attack a dummy. i did level up almost every jobs to 60 in hw (outside whm, healing is not my thing) and did try endgame with them... why i don't play ranged? because i don't find it challenging enough, it boring for me.. on this i feel for you, but in terms of challenge.... outside the mch... i'm sorry but none of the ranged is difficult to play.

[Morzy]

SAM is the best DPS class, it was also advertised as such. They wont (and cant) go back on that now. Theoretically, other classes were supposed to bring support abilities to make up for their inferiority in comparison to SAM, but judging from what we can test and see right now, at least at item lvl 314 this is not the case.

The problem being also that since SAM is the best DPS class on its own (as designed), it makes better use of most single-target buffs, thus it always is best to buff the SAM until aggro becomes a problem, so you basically require a PLD tank who has better aggro (and is the best tank anyway) right now.

So, IF you go for performance, SAM is best, PLD is best and AST is best in their respectives roles ,with BLM having a specialized AOE role (that is currently not needed in the EX content).

So basically what you're saying is SAM utterly replaced Monk. Sadly.