SAM out classing all other DPS

[KuroTenshi]

snip

Honestly this entire argument is made moot by only addressing obviously broken classes. Black mage should be more in line with monk and machinist should definitely be above bard. But as for comparing a 73rd percentile top personal dps class with an 82nd percentile lowest personal dps class, that's about where it should be. If you knew anything about the game you'd know certain classes bring about 400-500 dps overall throughout an entire fight just with their utility. Also if you want to continue to voice your opinion on difficulty, rDPS is the easiest thing in the game to provide. It literally requires one button press and everyone gets it. There is nothing in the game that's easier than gaining that chunk of damage.

Also on a side note, machinist effective rDPS is 1.3 not 0.6. So your theoretical increases jump you from around 3450 to 3630 or something to that nature. This is on top of the fact that the class is inherently broken and everyone knows that. So once everything is all said and done even if sam is untouched. That parse is likely to actually leave mch higher than sam overall. Which is actually a potential problem with the dps ladder. (Yes all dps should not provide the same exact amount of dps, otherwise ranged classes are inherently superior as they can take the place of melee or ranged whereas melee are forced to remain in melee range.) Though even that math is still wrong, but doing it correctly is more time than I and obviously you care to spend.

[Elnidfse]

*snip

This is going to take some time to address all the issues. You'll have to give me a bit to edit this post with all the relevant information

that's about where it should be. If you knew anything about the game you'd know certain classes bring about 400-500 dps overall throughout an entire fight just with their utility.

My post that you linked I head off that argument by showing you the DPS contribution + the personal DPS and where that sat. Did you real this part? If yes then go read that again. If no then go read it. In that example I was GENEROUS with numbers. I will show below how generous I was being exactly and what that means for players.

rDPS is the easiest thing in the game to provide.

Who said providing rDPS was difficult? And what does rDPS have to do with overall class difficulty. Nobody would reasonably make a statement saying that supplying rDPS is hard. It's also out of your control. You have a mathematical potential that you will never reach because fights aren't designed like that.

Also on a side note, machinist effective rDPS is 1.3 not 0.6.

No. Unfortunately, it's not and never will be 1.3% ever. The post linked below explains it better than I'm willing to re explain at this hour.

Though even that math is still wrong, but doing it correctly is more time than I and obviously you care to spend.

You'd be mistaken. Because I spent the time to math this out so people could stop tripping all over misconceptions.

In the thread below I will link I go through the motions of explaining the rDPS contribution of a MCH as well as examples and context of overall application. While also listing but mathematical maximum and minimums while also listing data and math obtained using extrapolation. Feel free to use either the jump arrow or link

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...lly-give/page2

*snip*

That parse is likely to actually leave mch higher than sam overall.

It does not. On the assumption that you've taken the the time to understand tRDPS increase as posted above you should now know that unless the average parse becomes higher than 4k you supply at MOST 25 DPS per person over the duration of the entire fight. When factoring in the multiplicative nature of stacking buffs this may go up by a few points but will generally always be LOWER. I was being extremely generous counting everybody in my example on the last page. 25 * 8. That's 200 DPS if we assume that healers AND tanks can all pull 4k DPS. (which they can't).

Let's use extrapolated information using averages from the same percentile I performed in, 80%. We'll even BUMP the samurai up to 80% for the purpose of examples and use only the community averages as they are NOW. Not as they WERE then. Mind you this is considering MCH hypercharge in a void without mathing the multiplicative gain that it could potentially benefit from when considering Strategem or AST

SAM | 3778 * 0.625% (23)
MCH | 3183 * 0.625% (20)
SAM | 3778 * 0.625% (23)
BLM | 3348 * 0.625% (21)
AST | 890 * 0.625% (5)
SCH | 1286 * 0.625% (8)
PLD | 2095 * 0.625% (13)
WAR | 2157 * 0.625% (13)
TOTAL | 126

A far cry from the 400-500 rDPS that you think exists there. And no. Nobody is saying ranged DPS should be superior to melee. But the average DPS should at least BE competitive. You know who you can take instead of a MCH and still total more DPS even if he dies? A SAM. Know who can give a healer a not small amount of MP? Casters. Know who provides a better rDPS increase? NIN.

You know how competitive MCH, BLM, DRG, and SMN are? The supposed high rDPS slots? Small. They're undesirable. And this is the problem that everybody excluding SAM see. And for the record, I don't advocate solely nerfing SAM. I advocate a balancing of jobs. Something than any reasonable person should be 100% behind.

[KuroTenshi]

Okay the only thing I really feel like addressing here is the issue of 1.3% vs 0.6% rDPS. It's entirely pointless to discuss anything but nearly optimal situations. You're also failing to consider the fact that most people's cooldowns, burst phases and raid damage cooldowns likely line-up at the same time. Due to this 1.3% is an accurate to low estimate because if you take in the positives and negatives it goes up and down. I checked your post on the page you linked and you entirely ignored potential positives only including the negatives that would instead hurt MCH rather than anything that might help it.

As for anything else you mentioned I may not have read. No, I probably didn't I'm inherently lazy and this whole topic is rather absurd.

[Vexsteel]

salt salt salt

[Elnidfse]

Okay the only thing I really feel like addressing here is the issue of 1.3% vs 0.6% rDPS.

That'd be fine, but you're going to have to educate yourself on this topic.

It's entirely pointless to discuss anything but nearly optimal situations.

In order:
1) It's not pointless.
2) The best MCH in the WORLD Still average the SAME rDPS increase as the AVERAGE MCH.
3) mathematical maximums will never be the maximums reached in reality. Your "optimal" play is literally (not virtually) impossible.
4) I already explained why 1.3% will never happen ever.

You're also failing to consider the fact that most people's cooldowns, burst phases and raid damage cooldowns likely line-up at the same time.

I'm not. What you're doing is assuming that CDs will align neatly or at all after the first opener. They don't always and some can't. And team comp varies dramatically.

I checked your post on the page you linked and you entirely ignored potential positives only including the negatives that would instead hurt MCH rather than anything that might help it.

1) I listed the potential changes that the so called positives bring.
2) I also showcased how those would ultimately mean very little and fluctuate wildly by duration of the fight and type of fight.
3) You have clearly missed the entire purpose of that theorycraft

On the topic of 1.3%: A 1.3% maximum can happen WITHOUT other rDPS increases in theory. Your argument assumes it requires other DPS to achieve this. It does not.

You also seem to think that a 0.625% rDPS will fluctuate wildly enough to hit 1.3%. That's not true in any form of math or theorycraft. And again I won't be doing this again because I've already showed it before. There's nothing to address. It's not even a debatable point, unfortunately. A MCH will on average have a 15%-20% uptime. In reality a bit less. This uptime provides a 0.625%-1% damage increase. There are no "negatives" here. I didn't list things that could "potentially" happen. I listed things that WILL happen:

1) Crit/Dhit buffs will become lower the higher the preexisting values are (of which I listed the best and the worst)
2) You are not in charge of your total uptime in any fight. The fight's design is. (of which I showed the theoretical highest versus the current highest)

And you seem to be confused about the multiplicative nature of buffs and how high they will ultimately push DPS. Using only flat increases if everybody was blown at the same time you wouldn't even rise over .05% from for contribution from whatever norm you're in.

[Noata]

I am up for adjustments to classes, It kind of shows when the two new designed classes seem to work very well. Also the issue I have with Samurai is that they ignore any form of loss out side of two positional for 5 Kenki. At least when Monk was a greedy DPS they had to put some effort in. I was kind of salty about Monk when I first got to 70 because well I basically leveled up ten levels and got crappy moves and a 30% damage increase buff. I like the buff but like Tornado Kick everything else is situational or useless. *cough* Tackle Mastery.


On my Monk I have to play insanely optimal and constantly manage chakra as I move, or form shift, make sure my dot never overlaps, Utilize Tornado Kick if all hope is lost for GL, or have enough time on GL to where Riddle of Earth extends it. And If I do all of this right, I should fail at passing a less skilled samurai. I have seen tons of people who bring up monk and really act like GL isn't a constant focus to maintain or that "Perfect Balance" will be up to restore it... I don't really want Samurai to lose potency... exactly, I wouldn't mind if They had a few positional's that like everyone else if not met meant less potency. I am not pretending to be the best monk, or even 90 or above percentile. I don't care if you beat me in DPS I just want you to have to work as hard as I have to to get there. That is the opinion of a random monk. Before you tell me how you earn your damage... Monk and my brother in need of some help Dragoon, we do much more to settle for less, and My class used to be that "Greedy DPS it is okay" class

[GunZLegend]

Math

Established Mathematical Values!? In my MMORPG!? A witch I say!

[Waliel]

do blm have positional? do blm need to return to melee after move because of a big aoe? do the blm risk to get a cleave because the tank move the boss?

Does melee lose one GCD worth of DPS every time a small circle or line targets them? BLM gets punished for every small movement they make and melee just has to strafe a little to dodge 95% of aoe while losing no DPS time at all.

BLM have 0 risk involved... you simply want to be the best dps of ranged, great news in terms of raws power in Final Fantasy series.... Summoner is the true big dps of ranged. blm is only the caster that have spell that allows to be efficient most of the time (because of weakness, what we don't have here)

The only risk melee have in this game is if they run in front of the boss and get cleaved, but that's like running into fire as a caster and wondering why you died.

blm don't have any mana management, you switch into ice umbral and your mana is back, other need to manage them mana... honestly speaking, for me blm player are like diva that don't accept that other can do better than them... and since....pfiuu.... for age. not the first time blm come and complain to not be top dps...

We don't have mana management per se, but we can randomly get screwed over by server ticks. What if you as a melee would randomly lose your combo before the last hit? And if you did do your last combo instead of starting over, you'd drop to 0 TP.

RDM need to go in melee for them burst, then get ahead of blm is normal... whenever a jobs need to get in melee they need to take risk.

The risk of accidentally doing more DPS?

blm is not more affected than any ranged class with cast... plus he get 2 skill for instant cast then *shrugs* (without forget the proc that allows to cast instant a few spell)

BLM is the most affected of any jobs in this game by any movement. Second highest dummy DPS doesn't mean anything when you can't actually utilize it.

[Galvuu]

RDM need to go in melee for them burst, then get ahead of blm is normal... whenever a jobs need to get in melee they need to take risk. and i will post this.

I'll only address this. I raid with RDM a lot, and this is just utterly wrong.
In fact, I tend to stay in melee the whole fight so I don't have to move much for my melee combo (heck, I have Dualcast for that, but why even do that when I can just sit there) and to stack puddles in Susie to help the melee. I also don't even need to move for the share, so being in melee helps overall uptime (and I get autos in for 70 damage, I guess). There's like no risk. I feel much more in danger when I'm away- farther from healers (idk if you knew, but the aoe heals tick radially- if you have any latency, the nearest people get their HP back half a second faster. This was an issue in A11S if you wanted to dps thru the burn... plus, the healers migh position a bit closer to the tank and I may end up out of range), have to sprint if I get tagged by a share...
The same is true for Lak. The only boss where I stand away right now is Exdeath for Void T3. On Halicarnassus the fight is so much smoother if you're on top of her for the ribbit cone aoe.
I never felt on RDM that I was better served being far from the boss except in Exdeath.

[Casca-Hawk]

Yet you are basing your knowledge of the job "From what I've seen" which gives you 0 credibility to make claims on the jobs difficulty. Their optimal rotation is far more complex than a tank rotation and requires heavy resource management, it's not as clear cut as do this combo and you win. I highly recommend you at least do some more indepth research on how the job plays rather than basing your knowledge off of mere conjecture, it makes you look like a fool.

A bit bitchy but they defiantly have a point.