SAM out classing all other DPS

[Elnidfse]

lol. The rotation at 70 is not simple. It is very easy to see a good SAM vs a bad one. The number of ppl playing SAM has massively dropped since ppl now realize its actually a hard class since our opener is a 20 button chain before you even get into the rotation. if you stuff up once you can lose 1k dps very quick. also they bring no raid utility so the dps needs to be high. ALL other dps bring some form or raid utility. My main is also warrior inb4 winge

A 20 chain button opener is nothing compared to the rotation a 2.0 DRG had to deal with and continue to deal with. But despite their complexity they don't baseline flat out beat everybody in DPS now do they. No. In fact they're the lowest melee DPS and are down there on average with casters.

Also:

The number of ppl playing SAM has massively dropped

What? The number of parses for Samurai submitted, the only metric to judge population, has gone UP since Stormblood has launched and is now second only to RDM in terms of number of Parses submitted. Contrast MCH which has half the submitted results of the second lowest job.

they bring no raid utility

And BLM bring no raid utility either and yet they're so far above BLM because...?
Ah that's right. BLM is a skilless class. How silly. Anybody can play one of those and be good, right?

It is very easy to see a good SAM vs a bad one.

Yeah You can tell just how bad they are by looking at how high they're beating you by. A below average 50th percentile SAM does more DPS than the best MCH. I'm sure the 0.625% increase to rDPS is worth being so outclassed.
A 60th percentile SAM will do more DPS than the best BLM on average. I guess being the most susceptible class job to mechanics means they should be one of the least desirable jobs in the game.
A 60 percentile also will average higher than a 90th DRG. Clearly they're sub 0.7%-0.8% rDPS contribution justifies their absolutely laughable place on the ladder.

Hard to play? What a joke. While pushing your last 8% is indeed challenging you don't need it. You can be worse than the player you're paired against and still crush them by far more DPS than what they supply to the raid. So let's play a game using some numbers I made not long ago

Which one of these is the SAM


But See. I expect to run into some arguments. Let's multiply the uptime of the average (which is higher than mine that fight) top 20 MCH (15% uptime) or 0.625% total rDPS increase and apply that to everybody. Not just the DPS. We'll apply it to everybody including the healers.

At a 0.625% total rDPS increase my effective DPS is 3265.5 + a theoretically inaccurate 185.9 (That is, giving everybody a 20 DPS increase when in reality only 4 DPS benefit greatly and to this extent).

This brings my effective DPS to 3451.4
Versus 3718.6
Do you see the problem here?

Your "difficult" rotation amounts to nothing when you don't have to perform it well to get amazing results that far surpass every other jobs combined personal and raid potential DPS.

[KuroTenshi]

snip

Honestly this entire argument is made moot by only addressing obviously broken classes. Black mage should be more in line with monk and machinist should definitely be above bard. But as for comparing a 73rd percentile top personal dps class with an 82nd percentile lowest personal dps class, that's about where it should be. If you knew anything about the game you'd know certain classes bring about 400-500 dps overall throughout an entire fight just with their utility. Also if you want to continue to voice your opinion on difficulty, rDPS is the easiest thing in the game to provide. It literally requires one button press and everyone gets it. There is nothing in the game that's easier than gaining that chunk of damage.

Also on a side note, machinist effective rDPS is 1.3 not 0.6. So your theoretical increases jump you from around 3450 to 3630 or something to that nature. This is on top of the fact that the class is inherently broken and everyone knows that. So once everything is all said and done even if sam is untouched. That parse is likely to actually leave mch higher than sam overall. Which is actually a potential problem with the dps ladder. (Yes all dps should not provide the same exact amount of dps, otherwise ranged classes are inherently superior as they can take the place of melee or ranged whereas melee are forced to remain in melee range.) Though even that math is still wrong, but doing it correctly is more time than I and obviously you care to spend.

[Elnidfse]

*snip

This is going to take some time to address all the issues. You'll have to give me a bit to edit this post with all the relevant information

that's about where it should be. If you knew anything about the game you'd know certain classes bring about 400-500 dps overall throughout an entire fight just with their utility.

My post that you linked I head off that argument by showing you the DPS contribution + the personal DPS and where that sat. Did you real this part? If yes then go read that again. If no then go read it. In that example I was GENEROUS with numbers. I will show below how generous I was being exactly and what that means for players.

rDPS is the easiest thing in the game to provide.

Who said providing rDPS was difficult? And what does rDPS have to do with overall class difficulty. Nobody would reasonably make a statement saying that supplying rDPS is hard. It's also out of your control. You have a mathematical potential that you will never reach because fights aren't designed like that.

Also on a side note, machinist effective rDPS is 1.3 not 0.6.

No. Unfortunately, it's not and never will be 1.3% ever. The post linked below explains it better than I'm willing to re explain at this hour.

Though even that math is still wrong, but doing it correctly is more time than I and obviously you care to spend.

You'd be mistaken. Because I spent the time to math this out so people could stop tripping all over misconceptions.

In the thread below I will link I go through the motions of explaining the rDPS contribution of a MCH as well as examples and context of overall application. While also listing but mathematical maximum and minimums while also listing data and math obtained using extrapolation. Feel free to use either the jump arrow or link

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...lly-give/page2

*snip*

That parse is likely to actually leave mch higher than sam overall.

It does not. On the assumption that you've taken the the time to understand tRDPS increase as posted above you should now know that unless the average parse becomes higher than 4k you supply at MOST 25 DPS per person over the duration of the entire fight. When factoring in the multiplicative nature of stacking buffs this may go up by a few points but will generally always be LOWER. I was being extremely generous counting everybody in my example on the last page. 25 * 8. That's 200 DPS if we assume that healers AND tanks can all pull 4k DPS. (which they can't).

Let's use extrapolated information using averages from the same percentile I performed in, 80%. We'll even BUMP the samurai up to 80% for the purpose of examples and use only the community averages as they are NOW. Not as they WERE then. Mind you this is considering MCH hypercharge in a void without mathing the multiplicative gain that it could potentially benefit from when considering Strategem or AST

SAM | 3778 * 0.625% (23)
MCH | 3183 * 0.625% (20)
SAM | 3778 * 0.625% (23)
BLM | 3348 * 0.625% (21)
AST | 890 * 0.625% (5)
SCH | 1286 * 0.625% (8)
PLD | 2095 * 0.625% (13)
WAR | 2157 * 0.625% (13)
TOTAL | 126

A far cry from the 400-500 rDPS that you think exists there. And no. Nobody is saying ranged DPS should be superior to melee. But the average DPS should at least BE competitive. You know who you can take instead of a MCH and still total more DPS even if he dies? A SAM. Know who can give a healer a not small amount of MP? Casters. Know who provides a better rDPS increase? NIN.

You know how competitive MCH, BLM, DRG, and SMN are? The supposed high rDPS slots? Small. They're undesirable. And this is the problem that everybody excluding SAM see. And for the record, I don't advocate solely nerfing SAM. I advocate a balancing of jobs. Something than any reasonable person should be 100% behind.

[KuroTenshi]

Okay the only thing I really feel like addressing here is the issue of 1.3% vs 0.6% rDPS. It's entirely pointless to discuss anything but nearly optimal situations. You're also failing to consider the fact that most people's cooldowns, burst phases and raid damage cooldowns likely line-up at the same time. Due to this 1.3% is an accurate to low estimate because if you take in the positives and negatives it goes up and down. I checked your post on the page you linked and you entirely ignored potential positives only including the negatives that would instead hurt MCH rather than anything that might help it.

As for anything else you mentioned I may not have read. No, I probably didn't I'm inherently lazy and this whole topic is rather absurd.

[Elnidfse]

Okay the only thing I really feel like addressing here is the issue of 1.3% vs 0.6% rDPS.

That'd be fine, but you're going to have to educate yourself on this topic.

It's entirely pointless to discuss anything but nearly optimal situations.

In order:
1) It's not pointless.
2) The best MCH in the WORLD Still average the SAME rDPS increase as the AVERAGE MCH.
3) mathematical maximums will never be the maximums reached in reality. Your "optimal" play is literally (not virtually) impossible.
4) I already explained why 1.3% will never happen ever.

You're also failing to consider the fact that most people's cooldowns, burst phases and raid damage cooldowns likely line-up at the same time.

I'm not. What you're doing is assuming that CDs will align neatly or at all after the first opener. They don't always and some can't. And team comp varies dramatically.

I checked your post on the page you linked and you entirely ignored potential positives only including the negatives that would instead hurt MCH rather than anything that might help it.

1) I listed the potential changes that the so called positives bring.
2) I also showcased how those would ultimately mean very little and fluctuate wildly by duration of the fight and type of fight.
3) You have clearly missed the entire purpose of that theorycraft

On the topic of 1.3%: A 1.3% maximum can happen WITHOUT other rDPS increases in theory. Your argument assumes it requires other DPS to achieve this. It does not.

You also seem to think that a 0.625% rDPS will fluctuate wildly enough to hit 1.3%. That's not true in any form of math or theorycraft. And again I won't be doing this again because I've already showed it before. There's nothing to address. It's not even a debatable point, unfortunately. A MCH will on average have a 15%-20% uptime. In reality a bit less. This uptime provides a 0.625%-1% damage increase. There are no "negatives" here. I didn't list things that could "potentially" happen. I listed things that WILL happen:

1) Crit/Dhit buffs will become lower the higher the preexisting values are (of which I listed the best and the worst)
2) You are not in charge of your total uptime in any fight. The fight's design is. (of which I showed the theoretical highest versus the current highest)

And you seem to be confused about the multiplicative nature of buffs and how high they will ultimately push DPS. Using only flat increases if everybody was blown at the same time you wouldn't even rise over .05% from for contribution from whatever norm you're in.

[Leonus]

A 20 chain button opener is nothing compared to the rotation a 2.0 DRG had to deal with and continue to deal with. But despite their complexity they don't baseline flat out beat everybody in DPS now do they. No. In fact they're the lowest melee DPS and are down there on average with casters.

Just to touch on this.... the 2.0 rotation for Drg was easily understandable. Maybe it was just me but Heavy thrust > Chaos thrust combo > Phlebotimize > true thrust combo. After that you would keep Heavy thrust and Phlebotimize in their respective spots and true thrust combo until you needed to really Chaos thrust combo for the dot without clipping it.

Jumps still used on CD, of course back then you HAD to deal with more severe animation lock and had to actually be careful.

The thing that made Drg irritating was when you HAD to hit the positional or you got none of the added effects. Back then Drg only had 2(?) Positional if I remember correctly.

Drgs rotation has always been pretty rigid, just in SB it's now even more rigid. I mained Drg for a long, long time. Drgs rotation has also gotten easier with each expansion. Not here to say you are wrong, not my intention. Just wanted to throw in my 2 cents.

I'm I've the mindset that the melee jobs are pretty easy. What's hard is just maintaining a high level of dps, at a certain point you aren't fighting your job, your fighting encounter mechanics.

[BlackThought]

Which one of these is the SAM


But See. I expect to run into some arguments. Let's multiply the uptime of the average (which is higher than mine that fight) top 20 MCH (15% uptime) or 0.625% total rDPS increase and apply that to everybody. Not just the DPS. We'll apply it to everybody including the healers.

At a 0.625% total rDPS increase my effective DPS is 3265.5 + a theoretically inaccurate 185.9 (That is, giving everybody a 20 DPS increase when in reality only 4 DPS benefit greatly and to this extent).

This brings my effective DPS to 3451.4
Versus 3718.6
Do you see the problem here?

You should have just /micdropped after this. This is breathtaking.