SAM out classing all other DPS

[Oscura]

This is the only thing that matters though. Except for some cases where a given job is frustrating to play, in which case we're not talking about balance but rather actual gameplay issues, discussing about job balance and relevance only makes sense with progression raiding and speekills in mind. And of course everyone here is talking about how SAM performs relative to other jobs. When we say that SAM should stay where it is now in terms of dps we mean to say that it should be ahead of any other job (with the possible exception of blm) be a high enough amount to justify its lack of synergy, whether or not other jobs are buffed. For instance, if mnk and nin are buffed, sam should be buffed as well, otherwise mnk/nin would be the preferred melee pair.

Casual players shouldn't even care about job balance unless one job is severly underpowered (like mch and brd were in 3.0) and/or not fun to play (I think this is what DRGs are complaining about right now) and/or has a stupid mechanic (again, barrel and minuet in 3.0 were basically a dps loss).

The problem is that there are some arguing with that consistency, such as you, whereas some are just saying "Don't touch my job!" I'm mostly addressing those who make it personal. Chances are if someone is making it personal when someone mentions balance changing or nerfs, they want their class completely untouched. Don't change it from the way they're used to, or like it, etc. People who have the mind for progression raiding and/or speedkilling, their arguments and viewpoints are more about the whole picture instead of just "how does this influence me?" A good amount of posts aside from those seem to read, "they can buff the other classes just don't nerf mine," without thinking about what that means.

Otherwise yeah, I agree with your viewpoint.

[BlackThought]

/snip

Otherwise yeah, I agree with your viewpoint.

Also, the defense of a paradigm that has existed for all of four weeks without a proper raid is utterly hilarious. Level 70, for some, felt like crashing into a brick wall. A community clamoring for some re-calibration makes all the sense in the world.

[Galvuu]

Also, the defense of a paradigm that has existed for all of four weeks without a proper raid is utterly hilarious. Level 70, for some, felt like crashing into a brick wall. A community clamoring for some re-calibration makes all the sense in the world.

From my experience, the opposite is true. More accessible content (like EX primals) seems to expose fundamental issues with jobs/gameplay/balance/whatever, which harder content (the proper raids) then exacerbates. Like 3.0 AST or the whole WM thing for BRD or WARs dropping like flies in 2.0 (double PLD meta for Coil).

[BlackThought]

From my experience, the opposite is true. More accessible content (like EX primals) seems to expose fundamental issues with jobs/gameplay/balance/whatever, which harder content (the proper raids) then exacerbates. Like 3.0 AST or the whole WM thing for BRD or WARs dropping like flies in 2.0 (double PLD meta for Coil).

I don't disagree with this. At all. However, I think people saying "hmmmm something is off here" right after people hit the cap, after all the battle system changes that have occurred, makes a ton more sense than the "No, this is the way it should be an idk what you're on about crowd."

[Leonus]

Sorry, but I had to post to just say this meltdown is totally sad.
If you don't like people criticizing your class, then just stop reading the OF or posting here.
No need to get all hyperbolic and make posts full of vitriol.

I know we've disagreed in the past but I at least respected your opinion.

Might be laced with vitriol, but also some up a lot of the arguments in this thread against Sam while going more extreme. I added a couple but.. meh. People will never be happy, at least not everyone. The criticism doesn't bother me that much, what does bother me more is when people do not really look at the class and not really doing Fair comparisons. People tend to overexagerate their own problems, it's human nature. Yea, some classes need help, i.e. drg/mch/smh and possibly blm. What I constantly see though sums up as "i wanna deal raw dmg like Sam but I don't wanna play it".

Why not add a positional to every attack for Sam, turn it into mnk and make them loose potency and kenki? Then they loose something on 2 fronts since apparently Sam looses nothing else ever during the course of a fight in comparison to everyone else. (Which at It's base is not true, Nin looses even less than Sam and mnk can get back to where it was rather quickly even without PB.)
At that point, Sam then becomes the most punished class for missing a positional, and maybe people will stop complaining.

I don't care people think the class is easy or hard, or appears less punishing but people aren't looming at things equally when making comparisons to other classes and just throw things out there. At east thats what it seems like to me.

Edit: your most recent longer post is a good post and pointed out some good things that I agree with. Remember I said most people don't appear to make sound arguments and through our past quotes I have respected your opinions. J read the OFs mainly for fun, but when I see inaccurate I formation outside of numbers it tends to get under my skin (like most people) and I feel compelled to post to At least provide my viewpoint on why said information appears to be incorrect.

[Ryaz]

I honestly think the biggest problem with "selfish" dps is just the communities perception of it. Think about it, if a Monk with party damage buffs = a Dragoon with party damage buffs = a Samurai's personal dps, then SAM doesn't automatically become useless as MNK and DRG aren't bringing utility, just damage. They're all equally viable. If Brotherhood lowered damage against tank and increased healing, THAT would be utility and make them more desirable.

Now if Ninja + TA = everyone else's dps, then thing get a bit stickier because they also provide non-dps utility like threat management. It's why RDM is so good right now. It isn't just their damage or the damage buff they bring. It's also the fact that they can raise and (sort of) heal.

Utility is what a class brings OUTSIDE of it's main role that's beneficial to the party. AST's Balance falls into the category of utility, but if they brought a healing buff to the group, it wouldn't.

It's why RDMs, NIN and AST are pretty much locks for party spots right now. All of them bring things to the party that other jobs can't. NIN is a dps with aggro tools, RDM is a dps with raise and heals, AST is a healer that buffs dps. The other jobs don't bring anything but buffs inside their roles.

[Leonus]

You are one sad dragoon lol

Pity you really... how about you play samurai study the job play it to its full potential and then come back here for a discussion because all of the point you mentioned is basically delete samurai and that make you a one sad peraon

I play Samurai, as Oscura stated.

Weeb sensor got triggered.... lol. Did I just get unintentionally called a weeb?

YOU'RE A WEEB!!

*Runs off laughing*

[Nite83]

Ohhh slashing debuff. Thats it that is the whole basis of the argument. Nin is a lock for a raid war may get in too making Sam slashing pointless

[Oscura]

/snip

I get what you mean, regarding one getting under your skin and all that. Sometimes I have to make sure my post is being posted with a reasonable argument and less my own emotions, so I often make sure to reread my posts before posting them. Hopefully you've calmed down or are calming down.

I honestly think the biggest problem with "selfish" dps is just the communities perception of it. Think about it, if a Monk with party damage buffs = a Dragoon with party damage buffs = a Samurai's personal dps, then SAM doesn't automatically become useless as MNK and DRG aren't bringing utility, just damage.

In a perfect world, this would be the case. This is ideally at least what I would want. Right now it isn't the case, but maybe one day.

[Nominous]

"Wanting to be relevant" is such a paper thin argument.

I'm not saying SAM should be nerfed (nor am I saying it's overpowered, as "imbalanced" is not the same thing as overpowered), but if the ultimatum for a class is "touch it and it dies," maybe the dev team should go back to the drawing board and make sure the class isn't so overly dramatic about any sort of change.

As it stands though, I feel people are exaggerating about relevancy. Most of the people here it will never apply to, as most casual groups never rejected or locked Monks out in HW. Unless you specifically are progression raiding or doing speed kills the game is mostly just having fun.

Yo, your character looks way cooler!

Also, relevancy does matter, it's not really an exaggeration. For pretty much everyone actually, casual or not. I know, because I've experienced this before. Thankfully I don't have to deal with it anymore, since I've been settled into a raid group for quite a while now. Let me tell you what it's like when you don't have that luxury, though.

If you don't have a great network of friends, or an FC that's into raiding, you're depending on PF or "FFXIV Recruitment" in order to find a Raid group. There really aren't many other ways to get into it unless you run into a random advertised linkshell or something. That means you're at the mercy of the recruiter, and their team's specific needs, rather than what you want to play. There were times where I spent weeks looking for a group before a tier launched, even contemplating server transfers before Cross-World started. Back then, it was rarely ever the case you saw someone recruiting for DRG in 2.xx, and MNK in 3.xx. Therein lies the problem. People try and run 'meta' no matter what. Can't stop it, people like the path of least resistance, and highest efficiency if they can help it.

And I don't think it's that they need to go back to drawing board with SAM. I believe it's squarely not the problem. The main offenders are piercing debuff, Trick Attack, and maybe even Embolden, but almost all DPS Jobs have something like that now. So, I think the problem, is that DRG balance is tied to like 3 total Jobs because of Disembowel alone. Where the difference between 5% Disembowel and 10% Disembowel literally could be never bring DRG, or bring DRG and 2 Phys Ranged instead of one. I think the problem is that NIN is so good with TA, it often leaves you with effectively one melee spot in most situations. Without those, there wouldn't be a need to justify any kind of DPS gap on SAM, because it wouldn't need to exist.

I guess it's not the game we play, though. So I guess the only real answer is to slap a 5% damage up for the party in some shape or form, to make it fit in, and call it a day, huh?