SAM out classing all other DPS

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

Sam will more or less be mandatory for savage progression and no class should be mandatory.

Mandatory: NIN, RDM, BRD, PLD, AST.

Optional: SAM, MNK, DRG, MCH, BLM, SMN, SCH, DRK, WAR, WHM.

I'd say SAM is just about the least mandatory of any job in game. Being honest.

Rights? What rights? Sam has no rights above any other job to be better at dps. That's like saying Paladin should be the best tank because they have the right to it! like wtf

SAM specializes purely in dealing personal damage. All other dps jobs have some raid wide utility that increases the raids dps, and thus their own dps contribution. SAM being any weaker than it is means that it's the new 2.X DRG, and a significant loss to take over rather jobs, rather than a negligible loss.

[Karja]

SAM specializes purely in dealing personal damage. All other dps jobs have some raid wide utility that increases the raids dps, and thus their own dps contribution. SAM being any weaker than it is means that it's the new 2.X DRG, and a significant loss to take over rather jobs, rather than a negligible loss.

Black mage is the only job without raid wide utility. SAM is a close second with Slashing debuff since two other jobs also have slashing.

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

Black mage is the only job without raid wide utility. SAM is a close second with Slashing debuff since two other jobs also have slashing.

Slashing debuff is not utility you can attribute to a Samurai for the simple reason that it's required for a NIN to maximize their own damage. So to say SAM has raid utility when it's paired with something else that has said utility is worth nothing more than a laugh.

After all, unlike Samurai, NIN is in fact mandatory and has a slashing debuff with much higher effective uptime, making Samurai redundant at best and worthless at worst.

[Karja]

Slashing debuff is not utility you can attribute to a Samurai for the simple reason that it's required for a NIN to maximize their own damage. So to say SAM has raid utility when it's paired with something else that has said utility is worth nothing more than a laugh.

After all, unlike Samurai, NIN is in fact mandatory and has a slashing debuff with much higher effective uptime, making Samurai redundant at best and worthless at worst.

Doesn't change the fact that you claimed that SAM is the only job without raid wide utility which is wrong since BLM has no raid utility.

[Eyvhokan]

SAM specializes purely in dealing personal damage. All other dps jobs have some raid wide utility that increases their own dps slightly. SAM being any weaker than it is means that it's the new 2.X DRG, and a significant loss to take over rather jobs, rather than a negligible loss.

That's because the whole design idea of selfish DPS is flawed.

Utility that makes them deal more damage is synergy (or combo), not actual utility like ressing or resource re-stocking, or worse is really a dependency (think DRG piercing debuff with BRD and MCH).


If 'selfish dps' is high enough that 'synergy dps' is less, then the synergy DPS is just a liability because it has more moving parts and is less resilient and makes it completely pointless. If the 'synergy parts' are worth it, the 'selfish dps' is automatically less desirable. In the abstract, it is conceptually not possible to balance.

With different classes, some fall in to place in that paradigm and others don't. That's why in your list the mandatory ones are NIN, RDM and BRD - because they actually fit the synergy paradigm in terms of damage (or BRD having actual utility, and self resilience to boss mechanics*). The ones that don't (most poignantly DRG and MCH) are less desirable to SAM because even with their synergy, they don't provide the numbers in damage, nor do they provide actual 'utility'.

*another factor that is overlooked over raw numbers is resilience to boss mechanics, mostly from DPS loss from moving, but individual class mechanics will play into this. From what I hear, SAM is actually a pretty good recoverer for melee dps.

[Lastelli]

*another factor that is overlooked over raw numbers is resilience to boss mechanics, mostly from DPS loss from moving, but individual class mechanics will play into this. From what I hear, SAM is actually a pretty good recoverer for melee dps.

As good as MNK, slightly worse than NIN, strictly worse than RDM and both ranged dps.

Anyway, balancing is not easy. The dev team needs data to understand where a job's personal dps should be depending on the utility it brings to the raid. They will probably slightly buff DRG/MCH damage and make some qol fixes, this is all these jobs really need.

Still, this whole discussion amazes me. There's general consensus about NIN/RDM/BRD being pretty much mandatory now with SAM and MNK fighting for the last spot and people are still complaining about SAM higher personal dps. This is just hilarious.

[Nominous]

That's because the whole design idea of selfish DPS is flawed.

If 'selfish dps' is high enough that 'synergy dps' is less, then the synergy DPS is just a liability because it has more moving parts and is less resilient and makes it completely pointless.

From what I hear, SAM is actually a pretty good recoverer for melee dps.

Yes. The idea of a 'selfish DPS' is flawed. It's the most perfect of imperfect solutions, however. What was the alternative? A raidwide crit buff? We have those. Raidwide damage buff? Got em' in every shape and form, don't need more homogenization there either. If you want every new Job to boil down to people wanting them for their own "TA" or "Balance" you want a really boring game. That being said, it's no one here's fault that they're seemingly running out of ideas for 'synergy' and 'utility', so no reason to debate the design of SAM being flawed.

Speaking of utility and synergy, though... It is absolutely the right idea for them to be lower than a Job with less. It's a balancing board. The more of one thing you have, the less of the other you should have, by nature. So, while you aren't entirely wrong about why certain Jobs are more alluring, and there are certainly other moving parts... The real reason people want NIN/RDM is because there's no downside to bringing them, and they have the most of everything, without sacrificing much of anything. Total contribution to the party dwarfs all, and they have the highest without a doubt.

The above being considered, it is actually more of a liability to bring a 'selfish' DPS than any other Job. Alternative means of supporting your party means that even with Weakness, or Brink of Death, even if you mess up mechanics, or have low mastery over your Job, you're bringing a static value that will improve the raid. A selfish DPS has everything to lose. A DPS with synergy/utility has static support values that never diminish.

And finally... SAM is no more easier or difficult to recover from mechanics than any other Job. It just loses damage in ways that people don't understand unless they study the Job. It'd be great if people could stop and just read a little into their mechanics. All people see is Kenki/Sen never deteriorating and assume, "Well, that's just like my Enochian/BoTD/GL, but their's never goes away!" It's not conceptually the same as any of those mechanics, nor is it how the damage is lost on SAM. 5 missed positionals, for example, result in the effective loss of 300 potency. Similar losses occur on the other melee for those mistakes, just in a different way.

[Draven]

SAM specializes purely in dealing personal damage. All other dps jobs have some raid wide utility that increases the raids dps, and thus their own dps contribution. SAM being any weaker than it is means that it's the new 2.X DRG, and a significant loss to take over rather jobs, rather than a negligible loss.

Which just means they failed to make a job that has any good party utility, again, but that still doesn't mean it has any "rights" to being overpowered when it comes to dps. If it's a dps class like other dps classes, then it has no more rights to anything than any other dps class. Period.

[Lastelli]

Which just means they failed to make a job that has any good party utility, again, but that still doesn't mean it has any "rights" to being overpowered when it comes to dps. If it's a dps class like other dps classes, then it has no more rights to anything than any other dps class. Period.

It's a design choice. You can like it or hate it, but there's nothing wrong with a job that only brings dps as long as the dps is high enough to justify the lack of synergy with the rest of the party.

[Draven]

nothing wrong with a job that only brings dps as long as the dps is high enough

Did I say it shouldn't? No. Read again. If it's a dps class, then it has no more rights to anything than any other dps class. Otherwise, it's unfair to other similarly designed dps classes that have just as much "right" to be the chosen dps for pure dps reasons. Why is this so hard? Is this the shortbus section of the forums or something?