SAM out classing all other DPS

[Lastelli]

Pretty sure that was just an analogy to get his point across and the numbers aren't based in fact x)
If you do work out the math with actual parses, his point seems to stand though.

A 5-10% difference from the second highest dps? Really? I mean we now have the dps - balance column on fflogs so it's not that hard to check that SAM is not actually outdpsing other jobs by a lot.

[Galvuu]

A 5-10% difference from the second highest dps? Really? I mean we now have the dps - balance column on fflogs so it's not that hard to check that SAM is not actually outdpsing other jobs by a lot.

I'm going to entertain this because I was curious on the actual number.
Let's consider Sunsano EX.
Checking that same column (no-Bal dps), highest SAM is 4.5k (and there's three of them). The highest DRG has 3.8k, again without balance. You can say these are outliers. The second highest SAM is 4.3, and there's a fair number of them. For DRG, the number is 3.7k. This is a 600~700 dps difference. The highest non-bal BRD and MCH were around 3.7k and 3.5k (I think I saw one 3.6k MCH). In the optimal scenario where you have both in your team, you should be getting around 160 dps off the BRD with Disembowel (dots aren't affected by this) and 175 from the MCH.
That's, obviously, 335. So the three Litanies you'll get over the fight and the four dragon sights need to equate 300 raid dps over the course of the whole fight. If you only have a BRD/MCH (more likely), this number becomes 460 dps.
I'm not sure Litany can close that gap.

This whole analysis is also biased pro-DRG- there are a lot more 4.3k+ SAM than there are 3.7k+ DRG, so you'd expect that if you looked at a non-bal 90% percentile, the gap the DRG has to close off sheer utility would be even bigger.
He may be wrong, but what he said warrants thought, and I do think he's right (that's a lot of damage for those two buffs to gain over a 7~8 minute fight).

[Lastelli]

I'm going to entertain this because I was curious on the actual number.

The problem with this reasoning is that it doesn't take into account two things:
1) the multiplicative effect of buffs, meaning that the more party members with party dps increasing skills there are, the more useful these buffs become;
2) the possibility of having more party members of the same role that greatly benefit from a given utility (remember, drg+mch+brd was optimal damage wise in creator).
Also you forgot to mention Dragon Sight, which is yet another dps increasing skill that drg have.

Now, I'm not sure why you've chosen to compare sam and drg when drg is clearly the only one melee dps that need some buffs and some qol fixes (notice how you don't have any nin/mnk complaining about their damage on the forums?), but if you try to compare sam vs mnk/nin you'll notice that what I said is correct. If you factor in mnk and nin party utility, and this includes skills like mantra, shadewalker and smoke screen since these can be potentially used to increase healers' and tanks' dps, not only direct dps buffs like brotherhood and trick attack, you'll notice that sam, nin and mnk are actually very well balanced. Drg, however, needs some qol fixes and a slight dps buff. But if they just nerf sam to the point where the damage difference between sam and mnk/nin is any lower than the current 5-10%, I guarantee that nin/mnk will be a strictly better pair than any other pair including a sam.

[Galvuu]

snip

I thought the point of his post was to highlight that DRG is considerably weaker than the rest.
Maybe it was the DRG picture?
You can still get a decent heuristic approximation by assuming the average raid dps over the course of a fight.
I'm not even sure how easy it is to align Trick Attack and Dragon Sight (I don't really play DRG).
Either way, there's no way MNK+DRG+NIN highlights the value of DRG more than DRG+BRD+MCH.
The fact the buffs are multiplicative doesn't change it a lot because this also holds for any other job combination, and right now MNK+NIN+BRD+RDM beats anything with a DRG in it handily.
I could go over the numbers more carefully, even though I suspect, as stated above, they'll only stack harder against DRG.

Again, please note that everything I said is solely about DRG. NIN is clearly the best of the melee lot, and MNK can actually hold his own vs SAM.
Sorry if this was unclear

[Lastelli]

I thought the point of his post was to highlight that DRG is considerably weaker than the rest.

Well...trick attack has a 60 seconds cd, dragon sight 120 seconds so ideally you can have dragon sight on 1 dps every 2 trick attacks. But yes I agree that DRG needs some love. I haven't even leveled it yet but just by looking at SSS dps requirements it's pretty clear that the dev team was very, very cautious with DRG personal dps because it brings so much utility...but I believe they went overboard a little. Though if I understand correctly, many dragoons have a problem with the new DRG gameplay because of how life of the dragon interacts with mechanics and jumps and I'm not sure that can be changed too much at this point.

[Galvuu]

Well...trick attack has a 60 seconds cd, dragon sight 120 seconds so ideally you can have dragon sight on 1 dps every 2 trick attacks. But yes I agree that DRG needs some love. I haven't even leveled it yet but just by looking at SSS dps requirements it's pretty clear that the dev team was very, very cautious with DRG personal dps because it brings so much utility...but I believe they went overboard a little. Though if I understand correctly, many dragoons have a problem with the new DRG gameplay because of how life of the dragon interacts with mechanics and jumps and I'm not sure that can be changed too much at this point.

Well, NIN brings more utility (than any melee, and honestly only BRD beats it out of all the dps), and they seemed fine in buffing it despite that.
I really feel for DRG players right now.
(Also, props for actual smart critique of the numbers before )