SAM out classing all other DPS

[Kacho_Nacho]

Off topic but related: This thread is an excellent argument why parsers would be bad for this game. Even when they are disallowed, people are throwing numbers around, will little context, in order to get a perceived overpowered job nerfed. Guys, don't you think Square Enix has a lot more data than we could ever compile about the performance of samurai versus the other damage dealers? Let them tweak the numbers. Our part in this is to let them know we believe there is too big a gap between the damage dealing jobs.

[Kaiden019]

Off topic but related: This thread is an excellent argument why parsers would be bad for this game. Even when they are disallowed, people are throwing numbers around, will little context, in order to get a perceived overpowered job nerfed. Guys, don't you think Square Enix has a lot more data than we could ever compile about the performance of samurai versus the other damage dealers? Let them tweak the numbers. Our part in this is to let them know we believe there is too big a gap between the damage dealing jobs.

To be fair that's basically what were doing right now. We are using numbers from a parse. Just not an official one.

SAM isn't an issue of who deals more damage, we can comfortably say that SAM deals the most, but people seem to have an issue with one DPS being designed to be stronger than the others. If SAM wasn't top of the charts they would be completely useless, it's not hard to understand.

[BlackThought]

To be fair that's basically what were doing right now. We are using numbers from a parse. Just not an official one.

SAM isn't an issue of who deals more damage, we can comfortably say that SAM deals the most, but people seem to have an issue with one DPS being designed to be stronger than the others. If SAM wasn't top of the charts they would be completely useless, it's not hard to understand.

Feels to me that some people are arguing about degrees while others are pretending they're talking absolutes, which is always how these things go.

Moreover, the idea that the devs know better than the community has almost never borne out in real life. The community decides the meta, always.

[EbonySeraphim]

This thread is an excellent argument why parsers would be bad for this game.

I think you kind of just suggested "ignorance is bliss" and "let those with all the power do what's best for us." I think Square is quite capable but they aren't impervious to making balance mistakes just like Blizzard didn't make Starcraft II perfectly balanced on release despite having craptons of data (running full on tournaments before full release). Also, though the tone of this thread is contentious, I don't see many people suggesting SAM should be nerfed necessarily. Rather that the other melee DPS jobs(DRG and MNKs really) have it tough with skills that are far more lackluster to use (requiring either luck, or raid-like coordination with another player) just to potentially catch up to the DPS advantage gained by simply playing SAM.

Does having a physical DPS heavy composition + 5% damage with a Monk allow the extra Forbidden Chakra's every 90 seconds catch up to what SAM offers or does it pass it? I''d say considering it's a more restrictive party composition, it should do noticeably more than simply having a SAM. The 10% damage increase and 5% to one other player from Dragon sight should be more beneficial than replacing the DRG with a SAM considering how restrictive and limited it is to use in the first place. DRG still has Battle Litany for that boost too, but Mantra is quite irrelevant if the healers can keep folks alive regardless of it. Let SAM be personal DPS king, but let higher effort + coordination yield better results by at least a noticeable margin.

[MiruWest]

snip

The thing is tho people are looking at personal numbers and not raid numbers. People see SAM at 4600 and DRG at 4200 and think DRG needs a potency buff yet they dont actually look at the damage increase the DRG is giving to the raid because I guess its not numbers you physically see on the meter. A DRG bringing Disembowel, Battle Litany, Dragon Sight, is a sizeable amount of extra dps the DRG brings to the raid across mutiple team members, yet people forget that and think the DRG should do almost as much DPS as the SAM and STILL bring that exact type of utility to the raid which literally brings us back to 3.0 MNK.

[Kacho_Nacho]

I think you kind of just suggested "ignorance is bliss" and "let those with all the power do what's best for us." I think Square is quite capable but they aren't impervious to making balance mistakes just like Blizzard didn't make Starcraft II perfectly balanced on release despite having craptons of data (running full on tournaments before full release). *snippety snip*

Well, it's actually more like "quit jumping to conclusions based on hearsay and letting those erroneous conclusions get in the way of your enjoyment of the game" and "we have no means of seeing all the data SE in accumulating. They are in a better position to make decisions than us."

Anyhow, it's possible things need tweaked. I don't want to see the pitchfork and torches mob dumping on the players of samurai nor do I want to see players get into this meta headset and start trying to exclude jobs like machinists and dragoon from raiding.

The balance doesn't matter for in the majority of the game. If a party isn't in the cutting edge of raiding, it doesn't matter who you bring to deal damage.

That's all I'm saying.

You do realize that there is no way for us,to let them know about damage gaps between jobs without parses right? Parsers already exist and tons of people use them.

But, people aren't supposed to be using parsers. SE has already made that clear.

In addition, parsers are notoriously prone to misinterpretation. Players cherrypick information that supports their arguments all the time in WoW. This is what SE is trying to avoid.

This thread was originally a troll's attempt to stir things up and get people thinking samurai should be nerfed. We don't have the information to make that call nor should we ever have that level of information.

We are not the game designers. We are the players. This isn't game play by democracy or mob rule.

SE make those calls. They decide what is balanced and what is not. Our part in this, is to play the game and offer our observations and criticisms. They receive our input then decide what to do from there.

[Aion]

Well, it's actually more like "quit jumping to conclusions based on hearsay and letting those erroneous conclusions get in the way of your enjoyment of the game" and "we have no means of seeing all the data SE in accumulating. They are in a better position to make decisions than us."

Anyhow, it's possible things need tweaked. I don't want to see the pitchfork and torches mob dumping on the players of samurai nor do I want to see players get into this meta headset and start trying to exclude jobs like machinists and dragoon from raiding.

The balance doesn't matter for in the majority of the game. If a party isn't in the cutting edge of raiding, it doesn't matter who you bring to deal damage.

That's all I'm saying.

In addition, parsers are notoriously prone to misinterpretation. Players cherrypick information that supports their arguments all the time in WoW. This is what SE is trying to avoid.

This thread was originally a troll's attempt to stir things up and get people thinking samurai should be nerfed. We don't have the information to make that call nor should we ever have that level of information.

We are not the game designers. We are the players. This isn't game play by democracy or mob rule.

SE make those calls. They decide what is balanced and what is not. Our part in this, is to play the game and offer our observations and criticisms. They receive our input then decide what to do from there.

how can we give inputs...if we dont have the number? SE said no to parser because they afraid that it will be source of toxicity... but how we supposed to improve if we cant have number on what damage we deal, how many crits etc? your statement is contradicting.

yes of course people should be fine bring any job that they prefer to to raid/dungeons. but that did not excuse them to play poorly. because he may have fun, but the others may not. that what parser CAN tell us.
On topic:

SAM should be generally outclassing other DPS, as it design of their kit. Currently we cant say the class balance is working or not because the endgame raid isnt here yet. I agree with you that we shouldnt have mindset that any job is incapable to do the raid. but it has happened before and we should keep critical to the devs. Being critical does not mean we undervaluing what they have done, but they are human too.

[Kacho_Nacho]

how can we give inputs...if we don't have the number? SE said no to parser because they afraid that it will be source of toxicity... but how we supposed to improve if we cant have number on what damage we deal, how many crits etc? your statement is contradicting.

yes of course people should be fine bring any job that they prefer to to raid/dungeons. but that did not excuse them to play poorly. because he may have fun, but the others may not. that what parser CAN tell us.
On topic:

SAM should be generally outclassing other DPS, as it design of their kit. Currently we can't say the class balance is working or not because the endgame raid isn't here yet. I agree with you that we shouldn't have mindset that any job is incapable to do the raid. but it has happened before and we should keep critical to the devs. Being critical does not mean we undervaluing what they have done, but they are human too.

Hi Aion. You can provide input by stating someone's DPS seems too high or too low. As for self-improvement, I feel most of us know instinctively when we are improving. We start getting comms, we don't have to stop and think about our priority list, we notice larger numbers on the screen, etc...

However, I believe parsers can be of help in gauging your self-improvement. The problem comes in when players only look at the top damage. They blow off the utility another class brings. They pay no attention to the fact that the #3 ranked damage dealer interrupted the boss's AoE attack six times while the top two damage dealers didn't interrupt the boss at all. They only focus on the all mighty top dps number and that hurts the game tremendously.

So, I'm not contradicting myself. I just know that SE has banned parsers for good reason and we have to rely on our own experience to gauge how well we, or another player, are doing.

Also, it is fine to be critical. No one likes a Yes Man.

If you, me, or anyone else notices a problem we should let the devs know! We should tell them exactly what we are seeing in a clear and polite manner.

However, we also have to accept that this is not game design by forum vote. Once we send off that post, our part is done. The ball is then in SE's court.

[HoLoFoNo]

Off topic but related: This thread is an excellent argument why parsers would be bad for this game. Even when they are disallowed, people are throwing numbers around, will little context, in order to get a perceived overpowered job nerfed. Guys, don't you think Square Enix has a lot more data than we could ever compile about the performance of samurai versus the other damage dealers? Let them tweak the numbers. Our part in this is to let them know we believe there is too big a gap between the damage dealing jobs.

I hate when people say this. Y'know a little story called 2.0 WAR, 2.4 NIN and 3.0 MCH?

When it comes to having information about the capability of their classes, this development team isn't on the best side. They really need something like a public test realm because of course they can't balance shit perfectly all the time, they are only human. However this doesn't mean they cannot be wrong about things. It is even worse because in all of these cases they still thought they were right even after hearing the complaints and then proceeded to make changes to the classes. I've said this before (I think it was in this thread) but you can't forget that the development team consists of internal people who judge themselves by their intentions and therefore it is much harder for them to see if something isn't working as intended or in a way that the players are happy with.

They honestly need public play testing because it really isn't fun for the people who have their class cocked up. They typically do a good job addressing the issues (apart from 3.4 AST) so I don't think they are incompetent. It is just the fact that just because they have 'data' about the supposed abilities of the classes doesn't mean it is reflective of the actual ability and usage of the classes (case in point 2.4 NIN which was top dps but still had trick attack. Their justification was the NIN was hardest to play due to mudras but it was infact extremely easy to play with the lack of positionals and it had a straightforward rotation.)

[Fannah]

(case in point 2.4 NIN which was top dps but still had trick attack. Their justification was the NIN was hardest to play due to mudras but it was infact extremely easy to play with the lack of positionals and it had a straightforward rotation.)

I believe it wasn't only about difficulty only, but about the kind of lags the mudra naturally had (but maybe I'm wrong) Which was really hard and a pain to play in Europe as the servers we were playing on were still in America and not in Europe unlike now, which helped to fix a bit that problem.

About what's hard or easy to play, it's kind of a poor argument done overall on this game (I'm actually not targetting you, but you just remind me of that topic) as yes, everything is pretty easy overall compared to a lot of games made to be hard ("osu!" ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VsYLIg67pYo where you can't complain about missclick of any kind nor rythm problem or coordination ones) / "Path of Exile" Hardcore mode (die once and you lose months of playing (so you have to know well what you do) / the shoot'em up games (those in 2D with little planes shooting tons of bullets per second and where you have to dodge tons of bullet per second like here : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHqN_fH2S7k) and of course tons of other games. Then yes, I believe we can all say everything is pretty easy and when you play a lot of those games where you need to be very reactive, having a game with a GCD of 2.5sec and dodging big aoe in red is reaaaally easy anyway. FFXIV is not a game made to be hard anyway.

I'm not saying everything is easy, but I would like to underline that nothing can be really said to be "hard". This is even why some bad tanks complain about "the dps get aggro on Sastasha, I will let him die" because the game is so easy that we have to create unexistent objectives like "the way we are supposed to do the dungeon" as anyway the dungeon will be succeed, and quickly anyway.

To me it's more about exploring a world, getting a nice story to live, meet people, talking, sharing advice and experiences, doing dumb things, doing the content to play together, or to challenge ourselves a bit, but never too seriously as anyway the game don't really allow us to challenge ourselves in a very serious way as it's not made for this.