SAM out classing all other DPS

[Shiroe]

The reasons only go so far though. [SIZE="1"]Like Yotsuy

Ultimately, it's a matter of whether its raid contribution (personal and supportive combined) outdoes all others by too large a margin. Yes or no? That is all.

^ This, and the fact so many are abandoning the other classes, because Sam is just so much more OP.

The other classes have been nerfed too much, they should lower they're "contribution" and increase they're personal dps, or nerfed Sam.

[Silverquick]

^ This, and the fact so many are abandoning the other classes, because Sam is just so much more OP.

The other classes have been nerfed too much, they should lower they're "contribution" and increase they're personal dps, or nerfed Sam.

Well so far in the parces I've seen up to my current level they aren't beating RDM so I'm guessing that whatever it is, probably isn't until level 70.

And I've seen primarily Rdm/Sam DPS crews. DRG has actually been stronger.

[Ephier]

Well so far in the parces I've seen up to my current level they aren't beating RDM so I'm guessing that whatever it is, probably isn't until level 70.

And I've seen primarily Rdm/Sam DPS crews. DRG has actually been stronger.

Yeaaa no. SAM walks all over RDM 314 lvl 70.

The SAM who think they aren't too strong right now sound exactly like NINs did in 2.4. There is in no possible way you can think it is okay to do 25% more damage than the lowest DPS in the game. That completely invalidates the class. Also let me explain that these numbers are SAMs damage in a vacuum. SOLO. Meaning this number only gets exasperated while in a party under the effects of trick attack, hypercharge, foes and the like. So no. They are indeed not okay. They have the most mobility and highest damage out of all the melee. Though they bring nothing but slashing buff to the party, that in no way makes up for the 400~600 they are over the other classes. Now going down to MCH. The difference is 1000. 1000. Why would you even use MCH now? Please tell me one logical reason why someone would bring a MCH when they are 1000 DPS below SAM? SAM is completely overtuned damage wise. It doesn't need a hefty nerf, but needs to be brought down 100~200. MCH needs to come up quite a bit. I know a lot of people are enjoying the power but if you played back in 2.4 like I said. This is the same situation we had with NIN when it first came out, and it got hit with the bat.

[Silverquick]

Yeaaa no. SAM walks all over RDM 314 lvl 70.

The SAM who think they aren't too strong right now sound exactly like NINs did in 2.4. There is in no possible way you can think it is okay to do 25% more damage than the lowest DPS in the game.

Yeah but that's not what I said.

I said up to my current level 67th, they are not able to beat RDM, and DRG has put up better numbers in the parces I've seen. So it must be something at level 70 that I haven't seen yet.

[Nominous]

Yeaaa no. SAM walks all over RDM 314 lvl 70. The SAM who think they aren't too strong right now sound exactly like NINs did in 2.4. There is in no possible way you can think it is okay to do 25% more damage than the lowest DPS in the game.

This is such a simple situation, I'm not understanding how blind people are to why SAM is balanced the way it is.

So. Let's say they brought everyone closer to Samurai damage. Let's say SAM does... at BEST, 10% more damage than the next best Job. Why bring SAM for 10% more damage, when you could have Battle Litany for the WHOLE PARTY, and Dragon Sight? Why bring SAM when you could have Trick Attack FOR THE WHOLE PARTY? Why bring SAM when you could have Brotherhood and Mantra FOR THE WHOLE PARTY?

Each slot in your party in an end-game setting needs to be looked at in terms of not only it's raw DPS, but it's overall benefit to total raid DPS. The most powerful DPS right now are NIN and RDM. Specifically RDM, because they can offer some of the highest damage, it can heal, res, AND offers a damage buff that is comparable in strength (due to uptime) as Trick Attack. Same as NIN, who is the second highest Melee damage next to SAM, AND offers Trick Attack to your party.

SAM is powerful, but it adds nothing to your party but damage. If you're taking it, it NEEDS to fulfill this role. I'd be careful what you ask for. Because when other things get buffed, and SAM complain (the same way MNK complained, for the same reasons), SAM is only going to get buffed in the end, and then they'll really be broken. The same thing happened in 3.xx where MCH and BRD got counter-buffed against one another because one community complained, then the other.

[Powercow]

Because when other things get buffed, and SAM complain (the same way MNK complained, for the same reasons), SAM is only going to get buffed in the end, and then they'll really be broken.

Yeah, next expansion Samurai will get a skill that increases a couple of people's raid DPS by less than a percent like Monk did! That'll show 'em!

[Nominous]

Yeah, next expansion Samurai will get a skill that increases a couple of people's raid DPS by less than a percent like Monk did! That'll show 'em!

If people whine and complain, and SAM ends up being put in the effectively same spot as MNK in 3.xx, I wouldn't be surprised. Again, we've seen this exact scenario play out. MNK was supposed to be 'fine' by bringing more DPS than anyone. They weren't. SAM is in a spot that's better than that, because it's extra DPS is at a threshold where it actually matters. Anything below it, and it will be in a worse spot than 3.xx MNK. Anything above it, and it'd actually be too strong.

[Ephier]

This is such a simple situation, I'm not understanding how blind people are to why SAM is balanced the way it is.

So. Let's say they brought everyone closer to Samurai damage. Let's say SAM does... at BEST, 10% more damage than the next best Job. Why bring SAM for 10% more damage, when you could have Battle Litany for the WHOLE PARTY, and Dragon Sight? Why bring SAM when you could have Trick Attack FOR THE WHOLE PARTY? Why bring SAM when you could have Brotherhood and Mantra FOR THE WHOLE PARTY?

Each slot in your party in an end-game setting needs to be looked at in terms of not only it's raw DPS, but it's overall benefit to total raid DPS. The most powerful DPS right now are NIN and RDM. Specifically RDM, because they can offer some of the highest damage, it can heal, res, AND offers a damage buff that is comparable in strength (due to uptime) as Trick Attack. Same as NIN, who is the second highest Melee damage next to SAM, AND offers Trick Attack to your party.

SAM is powerful, but it adds nothing to your party but damage. If you're taking it, it NEEDS to fulfill this role. I'd be careful what you ask for. Because when other things get buffed, and SAM complain (the same way MNK complained, for the same reasons), SAM is only going to get buffed in the end, and then they'll really be broken. The same thing happened in 3.xx where MCH and BRD got counter-buffed against one another because one community complained, then the other.

You are missing the point of what I said. There is absolutely no reason there should ever be a 25% damage gap between the highest and lowest DPS. EVER. That gap just literally invalidates the weakest class. SAM will not be buffed. I see them taking around 100~ or so DPS from SAM the same way they hit NIN in 2.45. MCH was a balancing nightmare since the start. They couldn't figure out how to balance either of them and over buffed both of them. The DPS order should be Melee>=Casters>Ranged. That's fine. But the current gap between top and bottom is too big. It needs to be narrowed. Seeing as how you are a SAM your points and view point are biased. But pretty much the entire community besides SAMs think that they are overtuned and need to be brought down a little.

[Nominous]

That's fine. But the current gap between top and bottom is too big. It needs to be narrowed. Seeing as how you are a SAM your points and view point are biased. But pretty much the entire community besides SAMs think that they are overtuned and need to be brought down a little.

For one, there's really no bias because I'm just a melee enthusiast. I play all of them, and have raided as all of them at some point or the other, never switching because of damage capability. DRG was the closest to my aesthetic interests, and now it's SAM.

Two, I understand exactly what you're saying, I just disagree. In the simplest way it could possibly be put- This is not a theory. We have all the evidence we need from 3.0 MNK, and how that played out. The community, in general, prioritizes synergy and total raid DPS gains than personal contribution. And again, we can look and see how MNK had higher personal DPS than the other 3 melee, by a solid 10% or so. However, TA offset that damage discrepancy, and Disembowel offset that damage discrepancy. Sure, you could have brought MNK, sure your total raid DPS would look fairly similar. You would have missed out on Battle Litany, and Shadewalker/Smoke-Bomb though.

In relation to the weakest DPS, that is not the truth in all scenarios. I can't think of a DPS weaker than NIN last patch cycle, yet they were auto-include for most raid groups, because of TA. The lowest DPS in the game right now (if we're to believe the SSS indications) have Hyper-Charge (which is active longer than TA if I'm not mistaken, even if it's weaker), and Troubador/Foe's. They are already auto-include in most scenarios based on their cross-role abilities that help with resources, but now also have a defensive cooldown, as well as the previously mentioned party synergy buffs. They don't need help competing because they bring quite enough to the table, and if their spot is contested because of DPS at all, it's by RDM or another caster, not SAM.

The same situation exists for SAM as MNK in any scenario, it's really not that hard to see. Close the gap, and then SAM becomes useless, plain and simple. The community is fickle when it comes to this. The moment that any DPS gets close to stepping on SAM toes, the immediate response will be, "Who cares about SAM bringing 400 DPS when you could have x raidwide buff, or res from a caster, or x utility". I'm not saying that SAM damage isn't crazy and absolutely insane- it is. But if it isn't, then it becomes a negligible benefit that can be outdone by any number of things from other DPS kits.

And let's think about it even more critically than that. What would you say the reason to bring SAM would be, in the perfect world of balance, where they aren't more than 5-10% above the other DPS that have party buffs and such?

[Shurrikhan]

This is such a simple situation, I'm not understanding how blind people are to why SAM is balanced the way it is.

So. Let's say they brought everyone closer to Samurai damage. Let's say SAM does... at BEST, 10% more damage than the next best Job. Why bring SAM for 10% more damage, when you could have Battle Litany for the WHOLE PARTY, and Dragon Sight? Why bring SAM when you could have Trick Attack FOR THE WHOLE PARTY? Why bring SAM when you could have Brotherhood and Mantra FOR THE WHOLE PARTY?

Not taking sides here, but just to throw out a metric:

For sake of simple example, lets say that with everything perfectly balanced, each DPS contributes 18% of the raid's DPS, each healer 6%, the OT 12% and the MT 10%. Trick Attack, with used perfect uptime, would produce an additional 1.67% raid DPS. However, so would any of those DPS dealing just 9.28% more personal DPS. That's on average, though, of course. Should a disproportionate (above average) amount of damage fall within the Trick Attack window, as it should, that amount increases, possibly to the range of 11% or so. Of course, to a smaller extent, the same can then be said of raid contribution from an AST when given a 9-11% more efficient Enhanced/Extended Balance/Arrow target.

Yes, SAM should be significantly stronger. The question is should it really *just* be about personal DPS, which would curtail the chance of balance in any serious lower-man content, should that ever be a possibility, and ultimately makes some aspects of raiding with a SAM less interesting ("Who wants Balance/Arrow?! Oh wait, you're not the SAM...").