SAM out classing all other DPS

[Shiroe]

those are utility: mantra, rez.;
but they are more for world-prog or 1st clears metas

for speed farming /fastest clears metas; you mostly need "dps" buff/debuff utilities...

mnk might be better for the mantra henve 1st clears, ..but for speed clears (which will probably make up more of the parties), Sam will shine over Mnk

[Lastelli]

those are utility: mantra, rez.;
but they are more for world-prog or 1st clears metas

for speed farming /fastest clears metas; you mostly need "dps" buff/debuff utilities...

mnk might be better for the mantra henve 1st clears, ..but for speed clears (which will probably make up more of the parties), Sam will shine over Mnk

Assuming that will be the case...would that be a problem? Keep in mind that the difference in rDPS in a party with a SAM has been estimated to be around 100 dps points higher than a party using a MNK instead. And this 100 dps difference might be further limited with party buffs alignment. Again...is this a problem? Again...do we want sam to be a worse choice for raid progression AND speedrunning?

[MelvinK]

So whats the point of this thread really. You will have mix of people that speed clear and people that do first run (progression), population of player and class representation will reflect that

[Sawamura]

So whats the point of this thread really. You will have mix of people that speed clear and people that do first run (progression), population of player and class representation will reflect that

this thread is basiclly a whining without know the whole picture.
Example: I can´t do that dps number with my job or this job does too much dps I can´t tank it.

for speed farming /fastest clears metas; you mostly need "dps" buff/debuff utilities.
mnk might be better for the mantra henve 1st clears.but for speed clears (which will probably make up more of the parties), Sam will shine over Mnk

By the time people doing for speedrun farm/fast clear, they will already overgear level. So a samurai in party or not, is not matter. So Sam wouldn´t shine over dps.
If a party finder is strict to samurai only. Usually those group suck and blame another players. So don´t join!
So you can always make you farm group with FC or PF.

[Shiroe]

..

for "1st time ever" clears, you'd want mnk, mantra helping healers, when many are of the group are under-geared and healing is to tight to survive some moments, in such metas; Sam might not fit in, ..unless war and nin are missing??

"fast" clears (like under 8 min kills), for "fast (and multiple)" farming and for "speed kills on fflogs", you'd want Sam; ..doesn't matter if your over-geared or not, you want the highest dps comp for that fight; in such comps/metas, Sam still fits in well

there are scenarios, where Sam fits into metas,.. just with 4.05, there might not be one meta for all,.. nor maybe for 1st clears.. or for fast clears,.. even 1st clears might now have more meta possibilities, same for fast clears (blm might actually be part of some, and with that maybe smn too), with 4.05 it's more open, even if nin might still seem very favoured,
on the otherhand nin/Sam fits together well too (or is it a lose to have them together??)

[Darian]

Yeah. Once ppl saw world 1st clear had a monk and not a single sam the whole thread got pointless very quickly.

[Svabodnik]

Yeah. Once ppl saw world 1st clear had a monk and not a single sam the whole thread got pointless very quickly.

Ultimately, in its current incarnation, MNK is a pretty niche pick. In order for the job to reach its full potential, all or most of the following need to be met:

-Physical-heavy party composition due to limitations of Brotherhood.
-Consistently heavy-hitting raid-wide damage for Mantra to be of any use.
-Fight needs to have no or little extended downtime (No extended transitions or MNK deaths in frequency more common than three minutes [PB cooldown], or boss vanishing for longer than 11-16 seconds without unavoidable damage [for RoE to maintain GL3] more frequently than once per minute [RoE cooldown].)
-Target needs to have flanks available for the majority of the fight (Examples of fights that do not are ones where the boss is unusually spin-happy or spams AoEs that require maintaining a single - or even entirely frontal - position relative to them. True North is a nice bandaid, but has a punishingly long cooldown for a class that loses a large chunk of its damage each time its rotation is forced away from the appropriate positional).

Have to admit that the fight mechanics of OSV4 relative to MNK's kit make it the exception that justifies the rule, rather than one that contradicts it. In contrast, jobs such as SAM, NIN, RDM, or BRD will hardly ever come across content that is more punishing to them than any potential alternative pick. This isn't to say that picking MNK out of personal preference, rather than looking to match fight criteria, is entirely out the window - but in those situations if one needs a strong melee damage dealer SAM will definitely be a more versatile option.

This isn't to say that I'm on the "nerf SAM!" bandwagon. Personally, if I've got gripes about MNK it's due to its large number of near-useless and/or contradictory abilities (Tornado Kick, Fists of Air, Tackle Mastery, One Ilm Punch, etc.), how downright clunky RoF makes the rotation, and how the damage is heavily dependent on both RNG and party composition (sure, Brotherhood in an 8-man with two tanks and two to three other physical DPS is golden, but try to bring it into a 4-man dungeon run with your other DPS being a RDM/SMN/BLM). Of course, these are all issues completely separate from the existence of SAM, and a few other jobs have glaringly more pertinent issues (ie. DRG, SMN, MCH).

[Atmora]

-Target needs to have flanks available for the majority of the fight (Examples of fights that do not are ones where the boss is unusually spin-happy or spams AoEs that require maintaining a single - or even entirely frontal - position relative to them.

You can hit almost all your positionals in every fight it's down to player skill. Also since you don't understand that bosses with full frontal hit boxes always let you hit positionals means you should stop talking about balance when you have no idea how game mechanics work.

[Svabodnik]

You can hit almost all your positionals in every fight it's down to player skill. Also since you don't understand that bosses with full frontal hit boxes always let you hit positionals means you should stop talking about balance when you have no idea how game mechanics work.

I think you're completely misunderstanding me here. I'm talking about fights where regions of the field adjacent to the target become inaccessible due to AoEs or other Zones of Imminent Doom, tank positioning, incoming knockbacks that will knock you off the platform if you aren't in a certain position relative to the boss, or the target having reflect shields on certain faces. By "entirely frontal", I mean portions of a fight where a boss has positionals but you are forced to stand in front of the boss for a period of the fight (think V2 where Catastrophe casts 100GS, and the safe zone extends only to the front of the boss). This is the very reason why I mentioned OSV4 being good for monk, because after the transformation phase the boss doesn't have positional limitations (one face). Please, reading comprehension first, insults later.

[EbonySeraphim]

You can hit almost all your positionals in every fight it's down to player skill. Also since you don't understand that bosses with full frontal hit boxes always let you hit positionals means you should stop talking about balance when you have no idea how game mechanics work.

Svabodnik called you out well. Just to add to it, the issue could also be a boss with unpredictable spins causing unforced positional-miss errors. Another good example of inaccessibility for positionals is Susano Extreme when he creates the narrow AOE fields that deny access to his flanks. This happens far more often than Truth North comes off of cooldown.