Clemency a bit OP?

[Faytte]

Snip

There was a server downtime last night so everyone was forced to log out, yet both your loadstone character profiles have you as a 60 paladin.
Edit: Shortly after this post loadstone updated! I retract the comment on your level.

Warrior has the 1200 heal *and* thrill of battle that they can pop off together for an immediate burst of healing before the Paladin gets a single clemency off. That is generally far more valuable and is not costing the Warrior GCDS on attacking and building their gauge. Warrior self heal is also affected by enhanced crit in attack stance and by extra health in defensive stance, and the former is enhanced by berserk. The idea of using the requisat extra damage/healing perk for clemency is strange at best, given you have to be at 80%+ to use it, have it off cd and not be in a position where you want to use it for your holy spirit combo. If an emergency is going then you been casting clemency and are now below the 80% mark to get the bonus. If you are able to be at the 80%+ mark at the exact time you identify you need to throw out an emergency heal cause of your slow healer, then you are living in a very strange and highly scripted world.

Marginal difference of ShO vs defiance, and largely negated by the fact that warriors have the single most available defensive CD in the game(inner beast), can be used on every single tank buster and multi hits. In the days of old you could say that inner beast was a warriors 'rampart' but that is no longer the case since they actually have rampart now with foresight being gone (for whatever it was worth).

Bluegarter paladins tested out oath gauge refreshing on large packs and, up to 5 or so sword oath still generated more oath than shield. Bulwark certainly changes that but we are talking about a 180 second CD with generally low uptime.

I'll reiterate; non healers can heal fine for short spurts, it just costs them and is not ideal. RDM can be a suitable off healer in a pinch, are you complaining about them? If a Paladin is spending mana casting clemency, that means they are not casting holy spirit and also depriving themselves of 20 oath gauge which is part of how they can self sustain their mana while in shield oath.

DRK and Warrior do not need to make a binary choice about their healing. If they need it, they use it, and for DRK is generally part of their new rotation. For a Paladin its a choice with opportunity costs, but the benefit is you can 'spam it', which enhances your survivability while further penalizing you with lost Holy Spirit, shellstrons and by extension, mp recovery.

[Reynhart]

Warrior has the 1200 heal *and* thrill of battle that they can pop off together for an immediate burst of healing before the Paladin gets a single clemency off.

On the course of a single GCD, yes, WAR can heal more, but after that...they drop completely. The additionnal HP offered by Definace doesn't matter, since PLD has Shield Oath to take less damage.

The strange part is how you claim that WAR has superior healing capabilities because they don't cost GCDs. If you're in a situation where your healer is dead, you don't really care about trading DPS if it means staying alive.

DRK and Warrior do not need to make a binary choice about their healing.

Equilibirum needs you to be in Defiance to heal. So, if you count DPS loss, burning Berserk during Defiance is a major one, considering the cost for switching stances and the setup required for a proper Fell Cleave combo.

[Faytte]

On the course of a single GCD, yes, WAR can heal more, but after that...they drop completely. The additionnal HP offered by Definace doesn't matter, since PLD has Shield Oath to take less damage.

The strange part is how you claim that WAR has superior healing capabilities because they don't cost GCDs. If you're in a situation where your healer is dead, you don't really care about trading DPS if it means staying alive.

Equilibirum needs you to be in Defiance to heal. So, if you count DPS loss, burning Berserk during Defiance is a major one, considering the cost for switching stances and the setup required for a proper Fell Cleave combo.

OGCD healing is largely more valuable than GCD Healing. It allows you to compensate for healer attention and lag with no cost to your damage or resource mechanics. If your healer is dead, then not even equilibrium will save you in the long term unless you have someone to raise the healer back since you will run out of mana and die (unless of course, you out gear the content, but warriors could do that in 3.0 anyways?)

Nextly, Equilibrium heal is tied to Defiance, which is something you can move into as an OGCD after dumping your rage on a fell cleave. Of course its a hit to your dps but not near the hit that a paladin is making using clemency over holy spirit. Warriors still have the most access to stance swapping in the game and while the effects of lost guage hurts them more than Paladins or DRK its not necessarily a crap shoot. It's also worth noting that if you are forced to swap to defense during a zerk to heal yourself, your equilibrium is significantly stronger

[Reynhart]

OGCD healing is largely more valuable than GCD Healing.

On one to one basis, right. But 60s CD vs GCD, surely not.

Nextly, Equilibrium heal is tied to Defiance, which is something you can move into as an OGCD after dumping your rage on a fell cleave.

Which is a GCD, and forces to rebuild a very valuable ressource for your damage output. Because without Beast, WAR lose much more than PLD without MP since the WS potency are closer to Holy Spirit than WAR's to Fell Cleave, especially since PLD could stay in Sword Oath.

It's also worth noting that if you are forced to swap to defense during a zerk to heal yourself, your equilibrium is significantly stronger

Sure, you have one heal skill that gets a 30% bonus, but that bonus is better used on something else. While Requiescat can apply a 20% bonus for up to five Clemencies without any penalty.
On top of that, those 5 spells can also be boosted by Convalescence, while WAR's can't profit of the whole duration.

[Faytte]

On one to one basis, right. But 60s CD vs GCD, surely not.

They arnt apples to apples. But a tank is largely healing themselves after tank busters (which are circa every minute) or when the healer is somehow tardy. In that light OGCD burst healing is better and the warrior kit is great for it. Paladins have an advantage that they could spend their mana on on more healing, which would be similar to a warrior giving up fell cleaves for healing in a way. One is not strictly better than the other, they are different. OGCD is better however in the sense that you don't have a healer dc/dead.

Which is a GCD, and forces to rebuild a very valuable ressource for your damage output. Because without Beast, WAR lose much more than PLD without MP since the WS potency are closer to Holy Spirit than WAR's to Fell Cleave, especially since PLD could stay in Sword Oath.

Switching to Defiance is not a GCD. You can do it while in the animation lock of other abilities. More over, casting clemency has the same cost for paladin, giving up their damage output for Holy Spirit as well as their gauge regeneration which is needed for their MP restore. Fell Cleave can also be 'dumped' before moving to Defiance for any kind of planned healing which is the standard in FFXIV fights (i.e you know the tank buster is coming) making it less of an issue.

Sure, you have one heal skill that gets a 30% bonus, but that bonus is better used on something else. While Requiescat can apply a 20% bonus for up to five Clemencies without any penalty.
On top of that, those 5 spells can also be boosted by Convalescence, while WAR's can't profit of the whole duration.

I never said the bonus is not better used, only that if you are forced to make an emergency decision then there is a benefit to it. Its not as if you are out your berserk while in defensive stance either. You are still enjoying bonus damage over normal, just not ideal damage of course. Secondly, Requiscats bonus healing only occurs when the ability is used at over 80% mana, and most of a paladins rotation is set up to blow their mana on holy spirit and then build mana back up before the minute cd of requiscat is back up. Given requiscat is used in the opening rotation, the world in which you are back up to 80% mana with requiscat off cd and decide 'oh i need to use this to heal myself 5 times' is utterly silly.

Could a paladin do it though, spend all of their mana, one of their offensive cds and spend 12.5 seconds(recsts)/5 gcds to be a heal bot for a little while? Yes they can. RDM can do it as well through veracure spam if they are so inclined. But we are talking about what a class can do through very inefficient gameplay centered around the idea that one of your party members has DC'ed. The paladins damage is effectively auto attacks for 12.5 seconds to pull off that trick and their rotation is hampered. Warriors have less 'potential' self healing, but the self healing they have is easier to access and does not interfere with their ability to hit buttons, and given the very predictable nature of fights in FFXIV, its silly to not value how good that is. Every time a buster comes up a warrior can pop inner beast + either rampart or vengeance, then equilibrium the moment its struck before moving back to offense mode after eating up their meter.

[Reynhart]

Switching to Defiance is not a GCD.

But using your gauge for Fell Cleave before is.

More over, casting clemency has the same cost for paladin, giving up their damage output for Holy Spirit as well as their gauge regeneration which is needed for their MP restore.

But without MP, PLD can still do its WS rotation, which has a higher average potency than WAR's, especially since, again, WAR needs to be in Defiance for the next 10s, delaying its next Fell Cleave by a lot.

Fell Cleave can also be 'dumped' before moving to Defiance for any kind of planned healing which is the standard in FFXIV fights (i.e you know the tank buster is coming) making it less of an issue.

You're right, but it's different if you need an emergency healing.

I never said the bonus is not better used, only that if you are forced to make an emergency decision then there is a benefit to it.

Of course there is, but since you mentioned DPS loss, we have to consider what WAR lose compared to its best output, and that's a big damage loss.

Given requiscat is used in the opening rotation, the world in which you are back up to 80% mana with requiscat off cd and decide 'oh i need to use this to heal myself 5 times' is utterly silly.

Just as silly as considering that Bersek would be up the moment you need that emergency healing.