Clemency a bit OP?

[winsock]

First off, SB made a huge stride in the right direction for PLD. I will likely switch mains. Good work SE!

About Clemency:
In HW, it was pretty already pretty powerful, allowing some boss fights to be cleared despite having your healer die almost immediately.

In SB, I've definitely pulled more than i should have on multiple occasions or even had healers just not paying attn, but spamming this skill alongside convalescence and requiescat has saved me several times. A few blocks and shelltrons later, clemency is ready for another go.... This is before considering the accident forgiveness from HG.

I believe this is overpowered for 2 reasons:
1) other tanks do not appear to get similar survivability.
2) it steps on the toes of healers. If healing is needed, but the healer isn't healing, the death of party members is a reasonable penalty.

Thoughts? I haven't played the other tanks yet. Do they get anything similar in regards to survivability?

For those not familiar with PLD changes, clemency can now be cast 5 times in succession before out of mana, can be boosted 20% by requiescat, and the amount of healing is on par with skills like benefic II / cure II.

[Faytte]

Not at all.

For one non healers can heal just fine, its just costly. Look at Redmage double casting veracures as a dps?
Secondly every time you cast clemency, your not casting holy spirit which is a choice between survival and damage (and guage).
Thirdly, Warriors have amazing self healing that is OGCD and has no other cost, and comes up about every minute or so, more than enough for dungeons and raids.
Fourthly, you are acting like gauge comes up really rapidly compared to 3.0. If you are LUCKy you might get a shelltron off every 30 seconds in 4.0 in shield oath, maybe a little more often in sword oath.

Given you are only level 60, nothing has really changed at all since Heavensward for you, save the cast time going from 2.0 to 1.5, So I can't understand your thought at all. Paladin survivability comes at the cost of GCDS and attack options while the other tanks have it built into their kit.

[winsock]

Snip

I am a lvl 70 PLD.

For example, WAR gets 1200 potency once a min, clemency is 1200 and fairly spammable. Both get convalescence. WAR gets a boost from defiance, bit ShO is already 4% better and PLD gets boosted from requiescat.

On a large pull you do block frequently, and even moreso with bulwark.

[Faytte]

Snip

There was a server downtime last night so everyone was forced to log out, yet both your loadstone character profiles have you as a 60 paladin.
Edit: Shortly after this post loadstone updated! I retract the comment on your level.

Warrior has the 1200 heal *and* thrill of battle that they can pop off together for an immediate burst of healing before the Paladin gets a single clemency off. That is generally far more valuable and is not costing the Warrior GCDS on attacking and building their gauge. Warrior self heal is also affected by enhanced crit in attack stance and by extra health in defensive stance, and the former is enhanced by berserk. The idea of using the requisat extra damage/healing perk for clemency is strange at best, given you have to be at 80%+ to use it, have it off cd and not be in a position where you want to use it for your holy spirit combo. If an emergency is going then you been casting clemency and are now below the 80% mark to get the bonus. If you are able to be at the 80%+ mark at the exact time you identify you need to throw out an emergency heal cause of your slow healer, then you are living in a very strange and highly scripted world.

Marginal difference of ShO vs defiance, and largely negated by the fact that warriors have the single most available defensive CD in the game(inner beast), can be used on every single tank buster and multi hits. In the days of old you could say that inner beast was a warriors 'rampart' but that is no longer the case since they actually have rampart now with foresight being gone (for whatever it was worth).

Bluegarter paladins tested out oath gauge refreshing on large packs and, up to 5 or so sword oath still generated more oath than shield. Bulwark certainly changes that but we are talking about a 180 second CD with generally low uptime.

I'll reiterate; non healers can heal fine for short spurts, it just costs them and is not ideal. RDM can be a suitable off healer in a pinch, are you complaining about them? If a Paladin is spending mana casting clemency, that means they are not casting holy spirit and also depriving themselves of 20 oath gauge which is part of how they can self sustain their mana while in shield oath.

DRK and Warrior do not need to make a binary choice about their healing. If they need it, they use it, and for DRK is generally part of their new rotation. For a Paladin its a choice with opportunity costs, but the benefit is you can 'spam it', which enhances your survivability while further penalizing you with lost Holy Spirit, shellstrons and by extension, mp recovery.

[Reynhart]

Warrior has the 1200 heal *and* thrill of battle that they can pop off together for an immediate burst of healing before the Paladin gets a single clemency off.

On the course of a single GCD, yes, WAR can heal more, but after that...they drop completely. The additionnal HP offered by Definace doesn't matter, since PLD has Shield Oath to take less damage.

The strange part is how you claim that WAR has superior healing capabilities because they don't cost GCDs. If you're in a situation where your healer is dead, you don't really care about trading DPS if it means staying alive.

DRK and Warrior do not need to make a binary choice about their healing.

Equilibirum needs you to be in Defiance to heal. So, if you count DPS loss, burning Berserk during Defiance is a major one, considering the cost for switching stances and the setup required for a proper Fell Cleave combo.

[SerahFarron]

WAR lost bloodbath which would have been a chunk of self healing with x6 decimates. WAR self healing was destroyed with 4.0, yeah we have Throb, EQ, IB, nerfed self heal with path giving less than 50% healing(it seems like a lot but its not), but PLD gained UNINTERRUPTIBLE casting, Clemency MP cost reduced, Clemency cast time reduced from 2.5s to 1.5s. Increased potency by 10 to EVERY combo, still have only 15% damage penalty, on top of HG and all the other shit they got. It's 2.0 all over again why even go WAR or DRK when PLD is a fucking god.

[Faytte]

On the course of a single GCD, yes, WAR can heal more, but after that...they drop completely. The additionnal HP offered by Definace doesn't matter, since PLD has Shield Oath to take less damage.

The strange part is how you claim that WAR has superior healing capabilities because they don't cost GCDs. If you're in a situation where your healer is dead, you don't really care about trading DPS if it means staying alive.

Equilibirum needs you to be in Defiance to heal. So, if you count DPS loss, burning Berserk during Defiance is a major one, considering the cost for switching stances and the setup required for a proper Fell Cleave combo.

OGCD healing is largely more valuable than GCD Healing. It allows you to compensate for healer attention and lag with no cost to your damage or resource mechanics. If your healer is dead, then not even equilibrium will save you in the long term unless you have someone to raise the healer back since you will run out of mana and die (unless of course, you out gear the content, but warriors could do that in 3.0 anyways?)

Nextly, Equilibrium heal is tied to Defiance, which is something you can move into as an OGCD after dumping your rage on a fell cleave. Of course its a hit to your dps but not near the hit that a paladin is making using clemency over holy spirit. Warriors still have the most access to stance swapping in the game and while the effects of lost guage hurts them more than Paladins or DRK its not necessarily a crap shoot. It's also worth noting that if you are forced to swap to defense during a zerk to heal yourself, your equilibrium is significantly stronger

[Faytte]

WAR lost bloodbath which would have been a chunk of self healing with x6 decimates. WAR self healing was destroyed with 4.0, yeah we have Throb, EQ, IB, nerfed self heal with path giving less than 50% healing(it seems like a lot but its not), but PLD gained UNINTERRUPTIBLE casting, Clemency MP cost reduced, Clemency cast time reduced from 2.5s to 1.5s. Increased potency by 10 to EVERY combo, still have only 15% damage penalty, on top of HG and all the other shit they got. It's 2.0 all over again why even go WAR or DRK when PLD is a fucking god.

No one is saying wars should have lost or not lost blood bath.On the other hand as a war through all of 3.0 i rarely needed my healers ever in dungeon aoe packs, something I could never say about my paladin. More over the former clemency was near useless given it was easily interrupted and took an age and a day to heal, often landing only after your tardy healer had already topped you off. The potency increases are also silly to mention and underline a lack of understanding of how paladin dps stacked in 3.0. Xeno and others have already tested paladin vs war in 4.0 and early results from their streams show war is ahead still. The 15% damage penalty on Shield Oath is on a class that aso has no self sustained damage booster like Maim on War or Dark Side on DRK. It's also worth noting that Wars got a rather massive 5% damage increase in defiance in 4.0 that you are ignoring, as did darkside on DRK.

Lastly, checking your posting history, where were your complains for the last 2 years when Paladin were crap? Now that they are even or arguably better, you have a huge problem with it, but were fine when Warriors and Drk were gods? Hypocrisy.

[Reynhart]

OGCD healing is largely more valuable than GCD Healing.

On one to one basis, right. But 60s CD vs GCD, surely not.

Nextly, Equilibrium heal is tied to Defiance, which is something you can move into as an OGCD after dumping your rage on a fell cleave.

Which is a GCD, and forces to rebuild a very valuable ressource for your damage output. Because without Beast, WAR lose much more than PLD without MP since the WS potency are closer to Holy Spirit than WAR's to Fell Cleave, especially since PLD could stay in Sword Oath.

It's also worth noting that if you are forced to swap to defense during a zerk to heal yourself, your equilibrium is significantly stronger

Sure, you have one heal skill that gets a 30% bonus, but that bonus is better used on something else. While Requiescat can apply a 20% bonus for up to five Clemencies without any penalty.
On top of that, those 5 spells can also be boosted by Convalescence, while WAR's can't profit of the whole duration.

[SeriousxSarcasm]

Please don't ask for Clemency nerf. D: The amount of times a PLD has saved my group from a crap healer already is invaluable, and I'd like to see more healing abilities given to them. XD