Dragoons... how do you feel post 4.0?

[SunnyHirose]

They buffed all our weapon skills significantly to make up for loss of Leg Sweep and Phlebotomize. Seriously, Full Thrust went from 360 to 440. That's huge.

Almost all the buffs were so small that they're just "baking in" the losses. There are some palpable net losses on that front (not that similar losses haven't hit other jobs, and not that mobs haven't been retuned to the new levels, mind you).

Now, I'm not going to make a mere reply post a comprehensive review of rotational changes, so don't take this as the whole picture, please, but I don't think it's hard to see that a lot of our new toys hardly feel like they make up for the loss of others (like traited BfB, or when you've dotted a mob a long time ago and finally you have to switch back). Moreover, it's hard to see some of those benefits at lower levels, particularly at level 50 or 60 where the buff to filler and addition of Direct Hit doesn't seem to make up for the loss to Disembowel, BfB, or of Phlebotomize in my eyes. But let's see some numbers first:

Heavy Thrust
170×1.10 = 187; /10 = 18.7
180×1.05 = 189; /11 = 17.2

Impulse Drive
180×1.10 = 198; /10 = 19.8
190×1.05 = 199.5; /11 = 18.14

Disembowel
220×1.10 = 242; /10 = 24.2
230×1.05 = 241.5; /11 = 21.95

Chaos Thrust
250×1.1 = 275; /10 = 27.5
270×1.05 = 283.5; /11 = 25.77

True Thrust
150×1.10 = 165; /10 = 16.5
150×1.05 = 157.5; /11 = 14.32

Vorpal Thrust
200×1.10 = 220; /10 = 22.0
240×1.05 = 252; /11 = 22.91

Full Thrust
360×1.10 = 396; /10 = 39.6
440×1.05 = 462; /11 = 42.0

WT/FC (×2)
290×1.10 = 319; /5 = 63.8
290×1.05 = 304.5; /5.5 = 55.36

Phlebotomize -> Lance Mastery (×2)
170×1.1 = 187; /10 = 18.7
320×1.05 = 336; /5.5 = 61.09

Running DoTs (at base GCD, this is a napkin math post despite its length)
(35+30)×2.5/3 = 54.17
35×2.5/3 = 29.17

Sum of weaponskills (before consideration of any buff besides Disembowel):
18.7+19.8+24.2+27.5+16.5+22.0+39.6+63.8+18.7+54.17 = 305.0 per 2.5s
17.2+18.14+21.95+25.77+14.32+22.91+42.0+55.36+61.09+29.17 = 307.91 per 2.5s

So, 10 levels for a <1% improvement does seem like a raw deal to me, but it's perhaps the least of my quibbles concerning what DRG at 70 is like. Potencies can be adjusted any time, but something just feels off. Like, in some of the ways that 2.0-2.4's "magic floortank" didn't feel right, it's not any one thing that doesn't feel right; you don't see player complaints and suggestions coming to a major consensus on "the" thing that's wrong. From a design perspective, I feel that is itself the problem; it means there's no readily apparent unifying theme to the gameplay of the job.

And that brings me to a different angle: if you want to design the skill floor and ceiling closer together, there are a number of stratagems that could be attempted, but Nastrond in particular runs in the opposite direction from what I would myself attempt. The skill floor crowd needs instant gratification--so make it the best stuff (potency is slightly more than a weaponskill ✗), integral to the rotation (✗), quickly accessed and often without much skill required (✗), while also not disrupting the old one too much (replaces Geirskogul cleanly ✓, Mirage Dive has a long animation ✗). The skill ceiling just wants to do the same thing but better, honest (two is alright, three with buffs is better ✓). Certainly don't hobble major sources of damage like the main rotation or jumps just for timing it a little poorly (lose BotD, lose WT/FC ✗).

I have a great deal of respect for SE's designers and I love dragoon--I've raided with it since 2.1, planned on going casual for 4.x, have no intention of ceasing to focus most of my theorycrafting efforts on it. But it took me about a day at level 70 to realize I'd much rather cut my losses and main something else until some drastic changes are made. 4.0 DRG can be rescued, my question is: will it?

[Bourne_Endeavor]

I hate my main since reaching lvl 70, which is a job I've been playing for years now. It feels awkward as hell to play, and LoTD takes too long to happen, which makes it seem not worth the effort. I'm ready to just unsub rather than give up DRG for another job.

Much as it sucks to switch, try picking up Samurai. It has a lot of the button combination and weaving that Dragoon lost in 4.0. You may wind up liking it.

[darkzzigma]

Much as it sucks to switch, try picking up Samurai. It has a lot of the button combination and weaving that Dragoon lost in 4.0. You may wind up liking it.

The thing is using a katana and a spear is no matter what still different. It could be said it's like a personal preference and that's one of the major factor affect a class people choose in mmo. To me as well if SE doesn't plan to make any drastic changes to DRG so that it would be more rewarding to play, especially its underwhelmed overall dps, and I have to feel like being forced to change my main to Sam, I would rather just quit. That being said, I will still try out Sam for good.

[Mindiori]

Its nothing personal towards those who say it (pretty obvious why they do in fact) but I cringe every time I see a 'why dont you join all the rest on samurai' remark.

Pretty clear that they nigh on ruined most classes with the ridiculous simplification. I mean if not DRG, maybe people should see how tedious SCH is as well. Can almost imagine the other game forums alrerady. Whats FFXIV like? And much like that Buzz lightyear meme, the response will be 'Samurai, Samurai everywhere!' I wonder what will happen when it receives its own nerfs and 'pruning' lol. Oh I already know. It'll be like the rest of the classes; as much fun as watching paint dry.

Whilst many claim the game 'all comes together at 70' now; what nobody seems to deny is that the entire 69 levels before it are almost pointless. When you have a game that has a mentor system but simultaneously offers jump potions to skip it all (as a loose example), I cant help but feel this game has become a little like ESO. A confused joke. Personally I'm laboring to find an MMO that takes a brain. Unfortunately that 'better game out there' that im always told to shut up, leave this game and play - is harder to find than they claimed.

[FIN-RaZoR]

@Hacchan

so thats what you meant. for me that is quitea opposite as i have problem with jump/ssd registering next attack instantly after using them like when i use jump and while i stop spamming the the buttons (jump is on ctrl + 6 and ssd on 6) it happens to register ssd also too early to cause clipping in GCD which wasn't too big problem in 3.x but now it makes me lose 1 mirage dive so i do prefer having that 0.5-1sec lockdown.

and i like this new rotation better than 3.x there's no more mindlessly using all the cd when they come off cd but i'am not sure about the rng removal either.
if we still had it it would be more fun but then you would have to be even more carefull with jump and ssd.
and only the initial time to reach lotd is long and after that it's only 20-40sec at most so they could give us cd that gives us 4 eyes instantly and ala morn for lotd finale to make it feel more rewarding

[Kyuubee]

They removed tedious things. I'm not seeing the challenge that you are speaking of being present before. MMOs in general are not difficult and their difficulty is not based on how many buttons or timers you have, rather their "difficulty" comes in the form of commitment and herding cats(players) in content that has a coordination pattern. Most of that is rotation with no on the fly decision making. If you want to talk about over simplification and bad design, you can talk about WoW Legion as in how they built Frost DK to take 4 buttons total and also put out the most DPS in general while their Unholy spec had a huge 12-15 button rotation that did trickle damage to add up everything and still fell behind Frost no matter what the situation was. Frost also had better survivability than Unholy. That's bad game design and over simplification.

[Shamox]

only the initial time to reach lotd is long and after that it's only 20-40sec at most

U wot m8

Let's do a simple 30sc timeline with 1 jump every 30sc and 1 SSD every 60sc:

- It's 0sc, we use SSD and Jump, 2 eyes.

- 30sc, Jump, 3eyes

- 60sc, Jump + SSD, we get 2 eyes here > we trigger LOTD between each, 1 eye.

- 90sc, Jump, 2 eyes.

- 120sc, Jump + SSD, 4eyes > LOTD, 0 eye.

- 150sc, Jump, 1 eye.

- 180sc Jump + SSD, 3 eyes.

- 210sc Jump, 4eyes > LOTD, 0 eyes.

- 240sc Jump + SSD, 2 eyes.

- 270sc Jump, 3 eyes.

- 300sc Jump + SSD, we get 2 eyes here > we trigger LOTD between each, 1 eye.

And its repeating over and over.
You will always have at least 60sc between each LOTD going up to 90sc.

Far far away from your 20-40sc at most.

[Jonnycbad]

- It's 0sc, we use SSD and Jump, 2 eyes.

- 30sc, Jump, 3eyes

- 60sc, Jump + SSD, we get 2 eyes here > we trigger LOTD between each, 1 eye.

Most openers don't you have starting with Jump/SSD at 0 seconds, but usually after a Wheeling Thrust, which is a good 6-7 GCDs in (10-15s).
That said, it's about 80-90s before you enter LoTD, not counting delay of running to new sets of mobs or mechanics or delaying activation of LotD to the next WT/F&C to get the full ~24-25s duration needed 3 Nastronds.


Start-HT(BL+BotD)-ID(DS+Potion)-Dis(B4B+GK)-CT(Jump)-WT(MD)-F&C(SSD)-TT(MD)-VT(LS+DFD)-FT

^ 6-7 GCD roughly before you get your second eye. Probably not optimal but this is something along the lines of what I see for Jump/SSD/MD usage, so I'm using it to demonstrate that we don't get 2 eyes at 0 seconds, not even close.

[Shamox]

It was a pure exemple, you just delay everything by 10sc and you have what it actually looks like in a normal fight.

HOW DO YOU DARE DOUBLEWEAVE A POTION?

This is how a correct opener looks like:

You can swap B4B and dragon sight it doesnt matters tbh.

The point was to show how you just can't get into LOTD every 20-40 sc after the first one.

What is wrong with you people?

[HaiHai]

Personally, and I know this may be an unpopular opinion, but I don't see why everyone thinks Heavensward Dragoon was so much more difficult than this new version.

The only thing difficult about HW was proper geirskogul timings, and I never found the rng nature of Fang/Wheel to be problematic. I'm honestly finding the base rotation harder to execute in SB due to the fang/wheel change meaning you have to hit more directional hits back to back after every combo. Not that that in and of itself is hard mind you, just that I feel it's more difficult to execute compared to our base rotation in HW.

And sure, BotD is more forgiving now and is basically impossible to lose while in combat, but we've traded BotD management for LotD and Eye management instead, giving even more emphasis on our jumps usage and other ogcd combat priority. I find myself having to carefully consider whether to hold skills or blow them more often in 4.0 than 3.0 in order to make things line up properly with cd's and LotD/Nastrond more so than before.

Of course this could be a side effect of the 4.0 changes still being "new" and my mind still needs time for everything to mold in place and become second nature, and the difficulty could also be a side effect or the job just feeling a bit more fumbly, but that's currently how I feel about it at the moment. Obviously this is just my opinion and your mileage may vary. The skill floor is undeniably lower, but I don't feel like the skill ceiling has lowered any at all.