Summoner Over-Nered (and A few other Problems)

[Kazrah]

and before someone say something stupid like its not part of the job or the lore or whatever, smns throughout the series had healing and buffing summons, some summoners had white magic, since they are still stuck to schs via arcanists, they should be use physic to at least some decent proficiency, this all could be avoided if they gave titan egi some life steal when they removed sustain

Other way around: they were White Mages that had access to summoning abilities. By that logic, we should give WHM summoning spells.

Really SMN doesn't need a healing spell like the RDM Vercure, but rather give them a healing spell that would adequately work for their pet. One option would be to replace Tri-bind for Sustain (or at least a spell people actually use). Another would be a passive trait for SMN that would vastly increase the healing potency of Physick on their pet. One more would be trait that heals the pet for a portion of the damage dealt by the SMN.

The problem isn't having a heal as good as RDM. The problem is having a heal for a pet that will die no matter how much damage to them is reduced.

[dinnertime]

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Physick is pretty much useless on a SMN so there's no good reason to put it in your hotbar so I wouldn't call it button bloat. They could make it INT-based which is possible like you said, but Sustain was more effective for healing your pet. It's really dumb that they removed it from the game though.

I don't think SMN really needs an effective healing spell like Physick though. It's nice but now RDM has that ability and I feel like Yoshi is pretty adamant that he doesn't want it on the other casters. (Although I wish SMN had better buffs)

[Ariomi]

Physick is pretty much useless on a SMN so there's no good reason to put it in your hotbar so I wouldn't call it button bloat.It's really dumb that they removed it from the game though.

The point is that Summoner's are stuck with a useless ability we will never use. For all the people who complain about it not being lore friendly... Physic is already on Summoner. We already have a healing spell. The only problem with it is that it's too weak. Much like the rest of summoner currently.

We lost Sustain, a useful heal on our pet, and kept a worthless heal. It's still button bloat. Physic has about as much use as Tri-Bind. Literally no point in summoner having either of these spells ever. Yet.. We lost skills like Spur that were used as often as possible, and Sustain that were as often as needed, and retained the two spells nobody used ever.

[Silkerin]

fair enough about the whm smn thing, but, the other points are still valid, also as of now, sustain would be less useful for most part, if we need titan egi to tank something then a bit later here comes bahamut and bye bye titan, making titan egi even more worthless, as of now we cant really use titan egi for nothing, so, might as well either get rid of titan egi and get a new spell, get some new skill sets for titan and forego him as the tank egi *maybe an aoe focused pet to alleviate the clunkyness of smn aoe*, or make bahamut exist at the same time as the other pets

or how about, something like osmosis as a new spell/buff, that when you use it, your dots ticks gives you part of the damage as hp for you and your pet?

[Kazrah]

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Add a manual Provoke skill to Titan-egi. Or just don't use Demi-Bahamut when you want something tanked. Or, oh idk, use a chocobo like any other DPS.

Adding an AoE pet would not only be a waste of resources, but it would be detrimental to the current design plan in the game of limiting regular AoE damage for all jobs. On top of that, SMN AoE is still relatively solid with Bane (800/30 seconds primary, ~445/30 seconds minimum), Painflare (200, 5 second cd), Shadowflare (250/15 seconds), Deathflare (400 primary, 200 minimum) and Akh Morn (680 primary, 340 minimum). SMN AoE may be clunky, but they still have better AoE than most jobs.

As for the Osmosis thing, sure, that could be something. Would likely feel better as a passive trait just so it's one less ability to worry about.

[Ariomi]

Add a manual Provoke skill to Titan-egi. Or just don't use Demi-Bahamut when you want something tanked. Or, oh idk, use a chocobo like any other DPS.

Adding an AoE pet would not only be a waste of resources, but it would be detrimental to the current design plan in the game of limiting regular AoE damage for all jobs.

Have to correct you here. Every other class in the game (except Summoner) have strong Aoe Cds, then spammable Aoe moves when needed.
Ninja's have hellfrog Medium (400 Potency) Katon (250 Potency) Doton (320 or something potency) And Deathblossom as their spammable Aoe (110 Potency)

Summoner's Aoe strength is 100% Reliant on skills with no less then one minute cooldown. Blm's have Foul for their big aoe with a reasonable 30 cd Thunder 4 Flare and Fire 2 which are both freely usable at any time. Bard has Rain of Death, and Quick Nock. No class is limited in Aoe, except Summoner where all their viable Aoe comes with a detrimental amount of downtime. Bane as you mentioned is now mostly worthless. Unless a group of adds last 30 seconds its a complete waste. (Doing Ex runs, most adds lasted around 12 even in big pulls.) Deathflare and Ahk Morn are even neutered by the damage fall off from their attacks. Especially since Ahk Morn isn't actually 680 potency. Turning Titan into something useful would be a good change. Otherwise Summoner's are waiting for everything to come off cooldown before they Aoe.

[Kazrah]

Snip

That was why I said 680 potency with a 320 minimum for Akh Morn. Also other than Death Blossom, all NIN AoE attacks have some sort of cooldown (Katon and Doton 20 seconds, Hellfrog Medium ~20 seconds with Mug, a 90 second cooldown) and NIN is the only DPS job in the game right now with bigger AoE skills that aren't "neutered by the damage fall off from their attacks", so NIN isn't really a good example. As for BLM, Fire 2 is like 250 potency, Thunder 4 is whenever it feels like proccing, and Flare is ~650 as well as a cycle thing and also has "damage fall off" like most other big AoE skills.

SMN is different in that you have to learn how to cycle AoE effects. It's only "limited in AoE" if you have no clue what you're doing, like using Bane on that 12-second trash pack when Painflare, tab-target dots and oh, idk, actual resource management might make you a bit better off. Sure, it's not a perfect system, but it's nowhere near as gimped as you'd think.

[Silkerin]

SMN is different in that you have to learn how to cycle AoE effects. It's only "limited in AoE" if you have no clue what you're doing, like using Bane on that 12-second trash pack when Painflare, tab-target dots and oh, idk, actual resource management might make you a bit better off. Sure, it's not a perfect system, but it's nowhere near as gimped as you'd think.

But how about oh, idk, actually make the imperfect system, less clunky? not to mention how oh, idk, all jobs have a spammable aoe filler aside sch and smn, but somehow manual doting feels comfortable enough for you in comparison to other jobs. also how nice of a suggestion to oh, idk, not use the main attraction of the job at 70 because you have to keep a pet out and not use bahamut.all i can see from your posts is how oh,idk, you dont want the other casting jobs to be in the same level as red.

btw, drain should be a blm only spell and have higher potency, and give something different for smn, like the osmosis thingie i mentioned.

[Ariomi]

No, I don't want other jobs being in the same theme as RDM. RDM has always been the support in the Final Fantasy series; a reasonable mix of damage and heals, that's its thing. I main RDM because that's the theme I prefer playing, not because it's "better" or "stronger" than other jobs, and I played SMN in 3.x because it was closest to that theme even though I knew full well that it wasn't quite to the point I liked. Even if they decided to lower potencies on RDM skills (still amazed they haven't), I'd still want to play it because I'm not playing it for how big its numbers are.

Here's the problem with that. Summoner was the support caster. It was also the king of Aoes. Red Mage comes in, and all that uniqueness about Summoner? Out the window. Only thing Unique about Summoner is it's low damage, Bahamut obscuring people's view, and how worthless it is overall compared to Red Mage. As it stands, Red Mage should be the lowest damage caster, with the most support. For the longest time in this game, More Utility = Less damage to balance it out. Summoner either needs much higher utility, or much higher damage. I don't care which. Black Mage and Red Mage are the only competitive Casters. There's nothing Summoner has that can rival what either of those offer.

SMN is different in that you have to learn how to cycle AoE effects. It's only "limited in AoE" if you have no clue what you're doing, like using Bane on that 12-second trash pack when Painflare, tab-target dots and oh, idk, actual resource management might make you a bit better off. Sure, it's not a perfect system, but it's nowhere near as gimped as you'd think.

Mudras have an 18 sec cd btw~ Ninja's Aoe is on an 18 second cooldown. Foul the big scary Aoe of Black Mage is on 30 Second Cooldown. Never mind that Fire 2 is 50 base potency stronger then Painflare, (and gets buffed by Astral Fire) Nevermind about Flare usage with their new trait. Cycling Through stuff as Summoner shouldn't be necessary. The whole point of bane is that I just spread my dots, and start the rest of my Aoe. Going through and single targeting every add, isn't aoe. It's single target dots. No different then Bard putting all of their dots and every add, except that bard can follow up on that, with quick nock, and Rain of Death.

I'll give you a better example. Look at Scholar. Scholar's Aoe is bane. They put their dots up, and Shadowflare, that's all they have. Whm has Aero 3, to dot everything, Assize, and Holy Spam. Assize is 300 potency, cooldown anywhere from 60 seconds to 48. Aero3 50 potency per add hit with 40 potency over time. Holy? 200 potency with fall off. With aero 3 one assize and one holy, a Whm did 550 potency with 40 potency every tick per add (With some falloff on holy.) Scholar would do 250 potency over 15 seconds with shadow flare, and 70 potency with Bio 2 and Miasma 2 every tick with fall off. Would take Scholar 15 seconds do what that Whm did in about 5.
This is pretty close to how A blm outperforms a summoner in aoe damage. Especially with how long it takes Summoners to use Bahamut in the first place.

Blm and Whmn outperform Smn and Scholar in Aoe. Summoner's whole gimmick since Heavensward is they had better Aoe damage.
4 Fouls every two Minutes at 650 potency with fall of damage vs 2 ahk morns every two minutes at 544 potency. Black Mages Aoe is stronger, and on half the cooldown. 2600 potency worth of Aoe with damage fall off vs 1088 damage with fall off.
Fire 2 at 250 Potency whenever they want, vs maximum 3 Painflares per minute at 200 potency.
Flare's 260 Potency with fall off that they can now use multiple times vs Shadowflare 250
Bane isn't even worth anything since the second target you dot takes 20% less damage. If you have 4 targets, you apply dots on one then bane you have two targets that take 80 potency per tick, one that takes 64 potency and the last takes 32. That's 176 potency total per tick. Painflare in the same situation is 800 potency total. (You are spreading your dots to three other targets. the only potency increase is from those three.)

Tell me one other class that has all of their Aoe's locked behind a one minute cooldown. If they were stronger, I might understand. But there are classes like Black Mage, Like Ninja, that have Aoe on command, that does more damage, with less cooldown. The only class with weaker Aoe damage to my knowledge, is Machinist. (And they never really had Aoe damage to begin with.)

[dinnertime]

snip

Yeah, I do question why they removed skills that are useful and often used while leaving behind useless skills like that damned Tri-Bind. Honestly, I keep forgetting Tri-Bind even exists...

I wish they buff Tri-Bind though, make it worth useable for AoE or replace it. What is SE even thinking when they thought it was okay to keep it? Seriously.

Still, I just ignore those skills honestly.