Summoner Over-Nered (and A few other Problems)

[Dualgunner]

Dual Casting works like this: You cast any spell and the next one is instant. You do not need to cast verraise then verraise again. You simply cast Jolt 2/Vercure/anything at all then you cast Verraise on the party member who died.

Cutting you off here. Go back and re read my comment. I said Dualcast raise and then swiftcast raise immediately after is RDM's main advantage that is not replicable by any other job. I at no point said you need to hardcast verraise to dualcast verraise.

Also yes, RDM's potencies are high but it has no DoTs. None, zilch. Factor that in when considering total potency per second. And again, it only has one MP refresh so when being the backbone of a party's rezzes you wind up in the last thousand MP of your pool unable to really do anything.

[Ariomi]

Cutting you off here. Go back and re read my comment. I said Dualcast raise and then swiftcast raise immediately after is RDM's main advantage that is not replicable by any other job. I at no point said you need to hardcast verraise to dualcast verraise.

Also yes, RDM's potencies are high but it has no DoTs. None, zilch. Factor that in when considering total potency per second. And again, it only has one MP refresh so when being the backbone of a party's rezzes you wind up in the last thousand MP of your pool unable to really do anything.

No, Red Mage's Main advantage is having a rez that is either instant (swiftcast) or near instant Dualcast rez. Rez can be done while almost completely mobile and doesn't need swiftcast. Also, using swift cast won't proc dual cast. You can cast something then swiftcast and do two verraise. Summoner's dot's are 80 potency per tick btw. Summoner's pet does around 100 potency of a summoner every three seconds, and summoner's have ruin spells. At best, Summoner's getting around 430 potency per 3 second tick. (Shadow Flare Dots pet and ruin 4) Red Mage does 540 potency in the same time using just Jolt 2 and Veraero.

And Summoner has aetherflow which is only 10% mana refresh but has skills that cost more mana.The only real trade off is that Summoner can lose damage and energy drain for more mana.

If a healer dies and a caster needs to revive them, what happens if swiftcast is done? Red mage shrugs, casts one spell and Raises them no problem. Summoner is stuck hard casting that raise completely vulnerable during that time. Can't move and at the mercy of mechanics interrupting it.

Red mage is also much less punishing to play, has more dps, and outshines summoner in utility.

[Dualgunner]

No, Red Mage's Main advantage is having a rez that is either instant (swiftcast) or near instant Dualcast rez. Rez can be done while almost completely mobile and doesn't need swiftcast. Also, using swift cast won't proc dual cast. You can cast something then swiftcast and do two verraise.

Let me spell it out for you.

"Oh no both healers are dead. Vercure -> Verraise Healer 1-> Swiftcast -> Verraise Healer 2. Well, there's over half my MP pool".

Any other obvious RDM job tips you wanna share? I didn't quite understand the first time you didn't have to hardcast verraise to proc a dualcast for verraise and obviously it never dawned on me Swiftcast nulls the dualcast proc.

Or maybe you just don't pay attention and read in your victim narrative wherever possible. Woe is summoners dps despite being one of the highest. I'm not even against you that it's a difficult job to play and needs some balance added because of this but as it is, even your damage on Susano and Lakshmi shows that the job is still capable of hitting hard.

Summoner's dot's are 80 potency per tick btw. Summoner's pet does around 100 potency of a summoner every three seconds, and summoner's have ruin spells. At best, Summoner's getting around 430 potency per 3 second tick. (Shadow Flare Dots pet and ruin 4) Red Mage does 540 potency in the same time using just Jolt 2 and Veraero.

Jolt 2 and Veraero combined are 4.74 seconds going off my GCD. The fact that over a 3 second tick you get 430 potency over my getting 270 potency over 4.74 seconds brings some real tears to my eye. You seem to think Dualcast just brings you instantly to the next cast.

And Summoner has aetherflow which is only 10% mana refresh but has skills that cost more mana.The only real trade off is that Summoner can lose damage and energy drain for more mana.

Still more than RDM gets for mana refresh. A 10% MP refresh every minute tied to your core rotation whereas RDM has to wait two minutes from a fresh CD to get their next refresh which, again, if using rezzes as often as you want us to, will leave us with nothing left to attack with.

If a healer dies and a caster needs to revive them, what happens if swiftcast is done? Red mage shrugs, casts one spell and Raises them no problem. Summoner is stuck hard casting that raise completely vulnerable during that time. Can't move and at the mercy of mechanics interrupting it.

And what happens when the RDM is out of mana because this isn't the first time it's happened? Then the RDM loses out on a ton of damage because we don't have nice DoTs up doing FaF damage for us.

Red mage is also much less punishing to play, has more dps, and outshines summoner in utility.

I won't deny RDM is a less punishing class. SMN is needlessly punishing at the moment. Dualcast makes verraise a distinctly better option than swiftrez. But RDM does not have more DPS than SMN. It's the weakest of the casters presented multiple times in this thread.

You do realize dualcast still hits the GCD right? We're belting spells out, but not at the speed you seem to think we are. We can push ~270 potency per GCD (~2.37s) on average, with maybe up to ~300 potency per GCD once we get to the melee and finisher spells. Combine every dot you have for your SMN, then your GCD attacks, and how much potency per second is that? Now account for the fact that you can have these dots on a lot of enemies, whereas RDM's only aoe is scatter spam, a few moulinets, and Contra Sixte.

[Ariomi]

Let me spell it out for you.

"Oh no both healers are dead. Vercure -> Verraise Healer 1-> Swiftcast -> Verraise Healer 2. Well, there's over half my MP pool".

Any other obvious RDM job tips you wanna share? I didn't quite understand the first time you didn't have to hardcast verraise to proc a dualcast for verraise and obviously it never dawned on me Swiftcast nulls the dualcast proc.

Or maybe you just don't pay attention and read in your victim narrative wherever possible. Woe is summoners dps despite being one of the highest. I'm not even against you that it's a difficult job to play and needs some balance added because of this but as it is, even your damage on Susano and Lakshmi shows that the job is still capable of hitting hard.

Your painfully wrong about a large number of things. Nobody here believes that summoner's dps is ok. Let alone top. Here's where Summoner stands in dps. They average around 2-3rd lowest dps and lower then both other casters. You can go through the different options and look for yourself.

https://www.fflogs.com/statistics/15#boss=1037

As A summoner "Oh no. Both healers are dead. It's a wipe."
If a summoner wants two raise both healers. Guess what. It's still 50% of the Summoner's Mana. As you so eloquently put, The minimum amount of time A red Mage can rez both healers could be right around 4 seconds. The Minimum amount of time a summoner could do it is around 9 seconds. Swiftcast > raise >wait for Gcd hard cast raise. By the time the Summoner gets both healers up, the tanks are most likely dead and nothing can save the run. Never mind that Summoner spent half their mana and 9 seconds doing nothing. During that 9 seconds, the Summoner is lucky if they do 180 potency per tick if they have their dots up. The Red Mage just goes back to attacking. A red mage can go any stone sky sea dummy and beat the dummy without using a single mana cooldown. Summoner's are encouraged to use as much as their mana as possible to increase dps. The dps loss hurts summoner more as it means they can no longer use their strongest spell.

Do you use ruin for 120 potency and 240 Mana, or ruin 3 for 170 potency and 1440 mana? (Under tri disaster buff) You use way more mana, But it's a dps gain. Alternatively, Summoner can play more passively, using ruin 1 and ruin 2 to save on mana, but lose a large amount of damage. (Oh only about a third of their spell damage)

Some other Red Mage tips? Sure. You can use all your Ogcds after you dualcast Veraero. You can fit in Ogcd's cleanly as there is a delay when Jolt 2 and Veraero cast before the Global cooldown resets. This is an improved Version of Summoner casting ruin 2 instead of ruin 3 so they can fit in a Ogcd without setting their rotation back.

Something quite interesting I noticed playing both Red Mage and Summoner. Ahk morn has 680 potency. Verflare/Holy is 550. Unbuffed (No embolden) on a training dummy at the same Ilvl Verholy does 11,830 damage. Ahk Morn did 10,992 damage. I find it odd that a 680 potency Ahk morn is out damaged by an unbuffed 550 potency.

[Dualgunner]

Your painfully wrong about a large number of things. Nobody here believes that summoner's dps is ok. Let alone top. Here's where Summoner stands in dps. They average around 2-3rd lowest dps and lower then both other casters. You can go through the different options and look for yourself.

https://www.fflogs.com/statistics/15#boss=1037

I'll admit when I'm wrong. I will note however the large variances in total parses between the different jobs as a possibility for variance.

As A summoner "Oh no. Both healers are dead. It's a wipe."
If a summoner wants two raise both healers. Guess what. It's still 50% of the Summoner's Mana. As you so eloquently put, The minimum amount of time A red Mage can rez both healers could be right around 4 seconds. The Minimum amount of time a summoner could do it is around 9 seconds. Swiftcast > raise >wait for Gcd hard cast raise. By the time the Summoner gets both healers up, the tanks are most likely dead and nothing can save the run. Never mind that Summoner spent half their mana and 9 seconds doing nothing. During that 9 seconds, the Summoner is lucky if they do 180 potency per tick if they have their dots up. The Red Mage just goes back to attacking. A red mage can go any stone sky sea dummy and beat the dummy without using a single mana cooldown. Summoner's are encouraged to use as much as their mana as possible to increase dps. The dps loss hurts summoner more as it means they can no longer use their strongest spell.

It's almost as if this is what I said RDM's chief advantage over Summoner was. What a surprise, thank you for enlightening me.

Do you use ruin for 120 potency and 240 Mana, or ruin 3 for 170 potency and 1440 mana? (Under tri disaster buff) You use way more mana, But it's a dps gain. Alternatively, Summoner can play more passively, using ruin 1 and ruin 2 to save on mana, but lose a large amount of damage. (Oh only about a third of their spell damage)

IDK, seems stupid to me to waste 7x mana cost for a 50 potency increase. Like I said in my earlier post, the nerf to ruin 3 was dumb, and disingenuous when they put its former potency on ruin 4--a false upgrade that is annoying among other things. Though again, a loss of 50 potency between the spells you mentioned equates to a third of spell damage? I'm sorry if that's the case.

Some other Red Mage tips? Sure. You can use all your Ogcds after you dualcast Veraero. You can fit in Ogcd's cleanly as there is a delay when Jolt 2 and Veraero cast before the Global cooldown resets. This is an improved Version of Summoner casting ruin 2 instead of ruin 3 so they can fit in a Ogcd without setting their rotation back.

Thanks. I'll keep that in mind next time I do Susano EX again. Should put me even farther above your total damage in the fight. So you're saying I *should* Fleche and Contra Sixte on cooldown? You sure I shouldn't needlessly hold them?

Something quite interesting I noticed playing both Red Mage and Summoner. Ahk morn has 680 potency. Verflare/Holy is 550. Unbuffed (No embolden) on a training dummy at the same Ilvl Verholy does 11,830 damage. Ahk Morn did 10,992 damage. I find it odd that a 680 potency Ahk morn is out damaged by an unbuffed 550 potency.

Dunno what to say without context here. Gonna assume you mean they both were nondirect noncrit attacks? Sounds like something Square should look into either way.

[Ariomi]

It's almost as if this is what I said RDM's chief advantage over Summoner was. What a surprise, thank you for enlightening me.

IDK, seems stupid to me to waste 7x mana cost for a 50 potency increase. Like I said in my earlier post, the nerf to ruin 3 was dumb, and disingenuous when they put its former potency on ruin 4--a false upgrade that is annoying among other things. Though again, a loss of 50 potency between the spells you mentioned equates to a third of spell damage? I'm sorry if that's the case.

Dunno what to say without context here. Gonna assume you mean they both were nondirect noncrit attacks? Sounds like something Square should look into either way.

Everything about Red Mage is a chief advantage over summoner. The Damage, The Utility, The Mobility. Oh and less frustration.

Look at your parses. Your only 60th percentile, yet you outdps me and I'm a 78th percentile (Not by much thou). If the average Red Mage can do around the top 22% of Summoners can do then Summoner needs to bring something more to the table otherwise it's obsolete. (Which it is)

When Ruin 3 was 200 potency and 120 potency stronger then the previous ruins, It was worth the extra mana and good summoners could balance the mana.

It made a big difference. https://www.fflogs.com/reports/Db1hw...pe=damage-done Before the nerf anyway.

And no. Both hits were normal unbuffed hits. Same gear, Both Susano 320 weapons. Wouldn't be the first time Summoner's pets potency would be different/lower then themselves.