Summoner Over-Nered (and A few other Problems)

[Tonkra]

Legitimate question. You have played FFIX, right? Zidane, Steiner, Vivi, Kuja, all them? Because the more you mention that it didn't have traditional jobs, the more I wonder...

Why do you come along with FFIX when its clear that FFXI and FFXIV jobs arent clearly based on these titles? You wont find a samurai or any other jobs like that in these titles..,



additionally it makes me wonder how we came from "my pet dies very fast, they dropped of sustain, SMN's damage is too low" to a "i want to heal my party members". Then please give my BLM heal too, because it gives me a disadvantage not to heal and raise, while RDM and SMN are able to semi-heal

[Ilenya]

Why do you come along with FFIX when its clear that FFXI and FFXIV jobs arent clearly based on these titles? You wont find a samurai or any other jobs like that in these titles..,

additionally it makes me wonder how we came from "my pet dies very fast, they dropped of sustain, SMN's damage is too low" to a "i want to heal my party members". Then please give my BLM heal too, because it gives me a disadvantage not to heal, while RDM and SMN are able to semi-heal

I mentioned them because you said summoners didn't have the ability to heal outside of summons. I just gave you times when they did. Then you started saying some didn't follow the job system...Which again, I gave you the ones that did. You seem to be moving the goalposts on that, but either way, I would like to point out that comparing FFXI jobs to FFXIV jobs isn't even something you should be doing. They aren't the same.

Point said, I've never specifically said SMN should have a strong heal. Most of my comments on the healing were traits that would keep the strength of physick currently the same, since we can assume it is not going anywhere, but give it an additional effect to heal the pets better (Either as a regen or just a stronger heal).

Why did you list FFIII jobs there?

[Ariomi]

Thats because of the base class system which Yoshida wants to get rid actually. SMN has heal and raise just because they share the base class.

Yet.. Summoner used to be unique as the only dps class to rez. You are strangely hypocritical when it suits you.
Red Mage now has Rez and Summoner is no longer unique.
And Yoshi P has had plenty of time to get rid of the class system. Storm blood was a perfect opportunity to do so. Yet he didn't. Your arguments are flawed and your too toxic to offer any sort of constructive feedback.

If you want to talk about old final fantasy games, Give Summoner knights of the round and let me solo most content. Or I'll happily pay Yojimbo to kill my enemies for me

[Tonkra]

Yet.. Summoner used to be unique as the only dps class to rez. You are strangely hypocritical when it suits you.
Red Mage now has Rez and Summoner is no longer unique.

Im hypocritical when it doesnt suit SMN and on the other hand doesnt solve the problem that you are talking about (dmg lack, pet dies often).

A party member heal isnt there to solve these problems. if the problem would be "i cant heal my party members" that would be the strict solution for that, right. I would support your suggestion if in my opinion (and sorry that i am not your opinion) if it would straighten up the summoner what he is supposed to be (that is: doing damage and his pets). Which goes along with being able to keeping his pets alive or increasing the damage of the SMN itself or the pets.

and this doesnt need a stronger party member healing skill. As i said im not against you, the summoner should be able to keep his pet alive. But i think increasing physick healing abillity is a squishy solution. Get rid of that useless spell and give him a proper pet heal.

Storm blood was a perfect opportunity to do so. Yet he didn't. Your arguments are flawed and your too toxic to offer any sort of constructive feedback.

I already gave constructive feedback here and that is: pet heal.

Also in this thread here.. since the SMN has many other problems, and that is not "lacking in healing my party members" (having only garuda egi out for 80% of the time in groups).

etc pp:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...on-Bahamut-now..

[Ariomi]

I(dmg lack, pet dies often).

A party member heal isnt there to solve these problems.
I already gave constructive feedback here and that is: pet heal.

Summoner's lost their pet heal, It's not something that is likely to come back, just like 1.0 just like perfect dodge. Summoner's need a heal to use on their pet, is does nothing but help the group more if they have the option to make it heal party members. You haven't said a single constructive thing.

Read through your suggestion page, Do you even know why old summoner's used Garuda 80% of the time? Your ideas sound like you don't even have a clue.

[Caduagm]

useless as aleays.

Ok, let me ask you something.
You are a BLM what are you even doing on this thread?
Spreading toxicity for no reason?

[Ariomi]

Ok, let me ask you something.
You are a BLM what are you even doing on this thread?
Spreading toxicity for no reason?

Tonkra is toxic as he recently submitted a complete Summoner rework with new summons despite the fact that the summoner quests in ffxiv explain why you can't summon ramuh or other's like him. Ironically, he says in that post that he wants to make Summoners more useful in groups. It's really funny actually

[Tonkra]

with new summons despite the fact that the summoner quests in ffxiv explain why you can't summon ramuh or other's like him.

Right, thats why you can summon demi-bahamut - its against the lore.. (which isnt the real bahamut it is a ghostly avatar). Last time: to heal party members doesnt solve any of your problems (lack of dps, unable to keep pets alive).

Summoner needs a proper pet heal, better dps/pets and not a party member heal.

Ironically, he says in that post that he wants to make Summoners more useful in groups. It's really funny actually

yes because only one pet is useful in group there should be ways to make the other pets more usefull as well.


End of story.

[Saito_S]

How would that solve the lack of damage for summoners in any way now?

On the contrary a summoner with "sustain" (pet heal over time) would grant you more dps, because with a better physick spell you would spend more time healing instead of doing damage. A heal over time heals automatically over time while you could perform damage spells.

Uh-uh. No you don't. Not letting you get away with this nonsense.

Answer my question in the context that I asked it or don't bother replying. I was not addressing SMN DPS or SMN balance issues AT ALL when I said this. I was responding to YOUR assertion that giving SMN a decently strong heal (i.e. as strong as RDM's Vercure) would be bad because then we'd have "too many DPS classes with heals", or because SMN "isn't a healer", or etc. What I was saying is: why is that bad? It would be TWO DPS classes with decent heals. TWO. I don't think any career healers wold be shaking in their thighboots over that.

Address this, or nothing at all, because taking my reply and making it about SMN DPS, or how it wouldn't "solve the lack of damage" is disingenuous at best.

Yes and i know that FFXI and FFXIV rely on the traditional job class system (with the typical artifact armors) roles and whatever comes next to it. And it is not reyling on FFVII, FFIX or anything which have none of the traditional job class system. Which doesnt mean that these are influenced by them or come close to them.

??? What does this word salad even mean? I said nothing whatsoever about FFXI. Why are you quoting me here? There's no connection to what I said. And this certainly doesn't address the fact that if you are going to talk down to people, you should at least be right about what you're stating. You borked that part by insisting that FFIX (NINE, not ELEVEN) had "no jobs" and that everyone could just learn everything.

Well in the past i could have asked for my BLM to improve the healing effect of "Physick" while it was equipped as well..
Why didnt i do it? Because i dont expect a damage dealer with huge burst damage like BLM to heal.

Well, by your own logic, Black Mage has rarely if ever had much emphasis at all on healing. Whereas FFIX had two summoners who were also powerful healers, and in FFIV Rydia started off as a WHM/BLM/SMN hybrid, so...

But my point, which you again missed, was that granting a decent cure spell to SMN, meaning that now both SMN and RDM have one, isn't going to make every OTHER DPS (especially non-caster DPS like DRG) suddenly go WELL WHERE IS MY HEAL SPELL?? Having exactly two damage dealers with decent heal spells isn't going to break anything, and the slippery slope argument is nonsense.

And on that note, it is time for sleep. We'll see if this thread explodes even more overnight!

[Texa]

Texa was right about one thing for sure (well, more than one thing, but this one thing stuck out to me):

Tonkra, a lot of your posts come of as EXTREMELY condescending and arrogant.

I think they're choosing to take any argument on this issue personally because of the extremely long summoner rework post they did that SE would never actually implement. Anything that goes against that is seen as a affront to all the work they did when the large majority of us haven't even read it and aren't going to because tl;dr flights of fancy that has nothing to actually do to with what people who actively play SMN want.

But off that subject, has SE ever ADDED a new action for a job after the expansion already came out? Like I know they buff, nerf, and tweak traits but have they ever added a whole different action to the expansion toolset after the expansion has released?