WHM might be meta

[QooEr]

EDIT: fixed some math. Whm doesnt outdps scholar as drastically, but it still does more than sch and its utility

...At least during the first tier(s) of savage, it could be. No im not trying to defend or find uses for that crap lily mechanic they got. A lot of people are whining that whm has no utility compared to the other healers (and theyre right) but that still doesnt mean it cant outshine scholar in certain raids. AST is obviously far better than the other two healers so thats out of the question.


Now, what does sch have that whm doesnt? Scholar has mitigation, but if its not needed to survive i dont think itll matter too much (besides, dps have what used to be virus now, so it really shouldnt matter in most cases). For raid dps, scholar has chain stratagem and the fairy that lets both healers dps more by reducing casts. The fairy’s dps-increase-by-not-healing is extremely variable, fight dependant, and not easily quantifiable, so i can’t really say how much actual dps it converts to. Stratagem’s impact on dps however, can be calculated easily.
The bottom line for whm to be meta is, if whm’s personal dps is higher enough than scholar’s to outweigh stratagem’s rdps increase, then it could be meta. This can be expressed mathematically as WHM dps > SCH dps + stratagem rdps impact. To see if this is true or false, we first have to see how much stratagem impacts rdps.
After looking at gordias fflogs and 3.1 bis stats, and with help from some of dervy’s formulas, the average crit chance back then was approximately 0.165 and average crit damage around 1.565. The formula for the impact of critical hits on dps is crit chance * crit damage + 1 - crit chance, which means crits increased rdps by 1.093225 during early patches.
With this info, we can calculate stratagems average rdps impact.
Stratagem increases the chance to crit on the boss by 20%, for 15 seconds, every 90 seconds. Therefore, average crit chance increases by (15*1.2+75)/90 as fights approach to infinity. Stratagem affects rdps as follows.
(15*1.2+75)/90 * crit chance * crit damage + 1 - (15*1.2+75)/90 * crit chance
Substitute variables and we get
(15*1.2+75)/90 * 0.165 * 1.565 + 1 - (15*1.2+75)/90 * 0.165 = 1.0963325 rdps increase by crits
Substract that to the increase without stratagem and we get a difference of 0.31075% rdps.
Of course, stratagem’s effectiveness will increase as we get more crit to stack. Current values for crits tend to be around 22.38% crit chance and 1.62 for crit damage, which would make stratagem a 0.46% rdps increase for the later patches of stormblood. (i am assuming stratagem is multiplicative since its a debuff on the boss and not a buff on party members. But we dont even know how it actually works or if the crit chance increase will be changed!)

Next is comparing WHM’s dps to SCH. We dont have actual parses, but we do have the skills; so we can hypothesize a rotation. Assuming dots and gcds never clip, i made sch’s and whm’s rotations into functions of potency per second (pps) over time (seconds). I also wanted to take into account how substats would play into this, but since we dont know the numbers for stats at ilv 290 and how stats weigh at lv 70, im going to use lv 60 stats and lv 60 stat weights (the changes shouldnt be too drastic anyways). I included numbers for base stats (no gear) and for CURRENT bis for each job. Keep in mind these rotations are overly simplified and do not consider healing (or whms lilies), but they should point to the right direction at least.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing
Gear makes the results vary, from whm doing 5.83% to 6.33% more damage than scholar. The fairest exchange (both jobs each with their respective bis gear) has whm doing 5.47% more than scholar. the average was 5.88%. As we are going early into the expansion, the numbers should be closer to how they are with no gear (6.33%), so white mage will probably outdps scholar by a fair amount in the early tier(s) of savage. Once we get actual numbers, this is going to be way more accurate. But for the sake of argument, let’s use the average 5.88% more dps than scholar. By knowing this, we can express WHM’s dps in terms of SCH dps.
WHM dps = 1.0588 * SCH dps. Easy.
Then we can substitute values into our initial equation WHM dps > SCH dps + stratagem rdps and we get 1.0588 * (sch dps) > (sch dps) + (stratagem rdps impact)

Next we must figure out what SCH dps is in terms of raid dps. This is probably the most difficult part to predict since jobs are getting changed a lot, overall healer dps nerfed, etc. but bear with me.
Looking at orange fflogs for all of alex savage, sch dps was 4.91 - 9.18 % of rdps, with an average of 7.37% of rdps. Of course, these values will probably drop, and statistics majors probably want to gouge their eyes out reading this. which means theres a fair chance scholar will do LESS percentage of rdps in stormblood

We can substitute further now.
1.0588 * (0.0737 rdps) > (0.0737 rdps) + (0.0031075 rdps)
0.07803356 rdps > 0.0768075 rdps
So it seems whm might be able to outweigh scholar regardless of chain stratagem

“Thats not fair! You're making tentative values using nothing but current data from a really small sample!”
I know these numbers are kind of wishy washy, but the expansion isnt even out yet. However, that doesnt seem to stop people from crying that white mage is the worst healer ever without even stopping to think about what jobs can actually do.
Besides, once we get actual data about job dps, optimal party compositions and what rdps will tend to be in fights, we can make these numbers more accurate. Remember that the effects and potencies we have for the skills are subject to change too. Im not trying to disprove my own point, im pointing out my own flaws before people argue with me about shit i already know. The fact that white mage dps has a fair chance of outweighing scholar and its utility remains.

TLDR
White mage MIGHT have a place in the meta and isnt actually near as bad as people think it is. I wouldn’t be surprised if WHM/AST ended up being meta with WHM as off healer, but we’ll have to see how the fights are in stormblood since healer dps optimization is hugely dependent on the fight.

Also honestly? Fuck the lilies. Nobody in their right mind is going to waste gcds in cures to proc lilies. Stop acting as if the lilies are detrimental to the job.

I want to thank my friend evi (gyuu nyuu) for helping me reason and calculate some of this stuff.

[Exira]

Please no joke xD

[QooEr]

Please no joke xD

im not joking i even did math to prove my point. if a fight is a joke like a5s or a9s i cant see why whm wouldnt be there. hell, some fights of a10s ive had without food or pots have had me and a white mage both parsing orange

[Bill_Murray]

If a single lily could be use to cast the instant shield for 15% negation, then it might all be somewhat worth it.

Nevertheless, we will not know anything for certain until we can read the fine print on the new abilities for all 3 healers. /crossesfingers

[Risvertasashi]

While you're not the first to note WHM's strength in DPS... Thanks for the detailed post. Supposing this does get WHM a meta spot. SE sees the job as a pure healer. How much stock do you want to put in it staying like this?

And of course, utility isn't purely raid damage. It's also things like the fairy healing with no GCD and MP cost. It's the ability to weave lustrates without losing a GCD. And so on. But then, Virus is going the way of the dodo. And for all that WHM may still be the stronger DPSer.

Also honestly? Fuck the lilies. Nobody in their right mind is going to waste gcds in cures to proc lilies. Stop acting as if the lilies are detrimental to the job.

They ARE detrimental to the job... precisely because it's a deadweight mechanic. DPS output might carry white mage... but that doesn't mean baggage isn't baggage.

[QooEr]

And of course, utility isn't purely raid damage. It's also things like the fairy healing with no GCD and MP cost. It's the ability to weave lustrates without losing a GCD. And so on. But then, Virus is going the way of the dodo. And for all that WHM may still be the stronger DPSer.


They ARE detrimental to the job... precisely because it's a deadweight mechanic. DPS output might carry white mage... but that doesn't mean baggage isn't baggage.

i get what you say about the fairy healing, but if no mitigation is needed, double regens work wonders (especially since whm has asylum), plus other dps have virus, which makes scholar only have sacred soil and fey covenant. i honestly cant think of many fights where those two are actually needed

and no, the lilies arent detrimental. reducing cooldowns isnt a bad thing. pretty useless? yes, it is pretty useless. but its not like the lilies actually harm whm (unless youre that guy fishing for procs, which is 100% your fault)

[Risvertasashi]

and no, the lilies arent detrimental. reducing cooldowns isnt a bad thing. pretty useless? yes, it is pretty useless. but its not like the lilies actually harm whm (unless youre that guy fishing for procs, which is 100% your fault)

Do you remember learning about opportunity cost in your basic economics class?

Lilies are harmful because of the opportunity cost.

WHM had a chance to increase in power in various ways, similar to the new capabilities SCH and AST gained. What WHM got was... lilies.

[QooEr]

Do you remember learning about opportunity cost in your basic economics class?

Lilies are harmful because of the opportunity cost.

WHM had a chance to increase in power in various ways, similar to the new capabilities SCH and AST gained. What WHM got was... lilies.

i do agree whm is in a very sorry spot. the point of this thread was that Regardless of it, whm can dish out numbers big enough to compensate

[Gemina]

Do you remember learning about opportunity cost in your basic economics class?

Lilies are harmful because of the opportunity cost.

WHM had a chance to increase in power in various ways, similar to the new capabilities SCH and AST gained. What WHM got was... lilies.

I know the lily mechanic leaves an air of skepticism due to the tool tips that were released, but just because WHM didn't get something all cool and flashy like Earthly Star doesn't mean the lily mechanic will be dead on arrival. We don't know, and won't know the extent of their power in fresh content until we get our hands on SB, so please just stop with this already.

OP, thanks for putting in that time and effort, and looking for windows for WHM to be brought back into the meta. That is a hell of a lot more than the constant griping, and doomsaying over the last couple weeks.

[Mahkii]

Just for perspective, if I could chalk it up to one ability why SCH is currently meta, it is an ability called Whispering Dawn. Basically, SCH has both shields and AOE regen currently and will continue to in 4.0. WHM isn't able to compete with that right now and I don't see it being able to in 4.0.